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ARUP BCR ABL ratios?


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#1 Ludwigh

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:05 PM

Hello, fellow warriors. I am getting frustrated with my oncologists. 5 months ago my BCR ABL ratio from Arup Labratories was 0.006745. At that time my oncologist with the Rocky Mountain Transplant Center said that it was a 2 log reduction. I am currently at 0.001367. My local oncologist said that it was now just a 1.5 log reduction and I am nearly 10 months into treatment with gleevec. My first BCR ABL at diagnosis arrived at the lab clotted because they put it in the wrong vial. there for unreadable.  Any one also have ARUP labratories as thier BRC ABL lab. What is considered a 3 log reduction with thier results? I guess I am just frustraited that I ent from a 2.5 log to a 1.5 log between doctors.

Thanks,

Terence



#2 oscarsst

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 12:53 PM

Hi --

We have been using ARUP since diagnosis and oddly enough our first (and second) PCRs were not useable (not ARUP's fault in either instance).

Here are a few things that I've learned over the years.

I was specifically told last year that ARUP's medical director did not believe in reporting log reductions as he felt it was misleading on an individual basis. In other words, his opinion was that a person's log reduction is most accurately calculated on the basis of their own starting PCR value (as you know, a lab baseline is the average starting PCR for all newly-diagnosed patients for that lab and it can vary dramatically from any given person's starting PCR - either higher or lower).

This philosophy, while commendable in terms of absolute accuracy, does pose a problem when you do not have a starting PCR from which to calculate your own log reduction.

However, one thing to keep in mind is that you can always get a rough idea of your "progress" by looking to see what the your log reduction has been between your own multiple samples over time.

Another thing to consider is that several experts have said that when a patient achieves CCR that typically correlates to a 1.5 to 2 log reduction by PCR (please note that this is a VERY rough rule of thumb -- and, admittedly, the two are measuring two entirely different things!). You don't say whether you've had a bone marrow biopsy/aspiration since diagnosis but that info would surely be helpful. If you're CCR in 10 months, excellent.

Anyway, let me sum it up with a real life example:

.009 -- and CCR by BMA (0 of 20) -- 6 months from diagnosis

.00089

.00144

.00025

.00034

.00035

.00010

.00004 -- almost 3 years from diagnosis

So the difference between .009 and .00004 is a 2.4 log reduction PLUS whatever reduction had already occurred by the time we had reached CCR. So 2.4 plus (conservatively) 1.5 and thus a total 3.9 log reduction or something in that ballpark. Our onc agrees.

Long story short, though, the real take-home message is that it's the trend that is the important thing. I remember how difficult it was to wait to see a trend develop. If we take just the two numbers you have, it would seem that you have declined within the last 5 months -- so you'd like to see that continue going forward.

One last word of caution -- never switch between labs -- that creates complete confusion in trying to compare results.

Good luck!

Stephanie



#3 Ludwigh

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 03:16 PM

Stephanie, Bless you. I have to go for a bone marrow biopsy on oct 1st (second time) . I was worried about it since I am approaching a year. Since I am at .0014 at 9 months, I should be in good shape.

I let myself get up to high and get knocked down again.

Thanks,

Terence



#4 oscarsst

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 03:34 PM

Happy to offer our experiences. FYI, my husband's PCR at 9 months (from ARUP) was 0.00089 which is really very similar to yours at .0014. Once the bone marrow confirms that you are CCR, make sure you go out and celebrate! We sure did find the first year/year-and-a-half to be nerve wracking but it gets better over time (you'd have never convinced me of that back then, but it really does).

All the best, Stephanie



#5 Trey

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:47 PM

Ludwigh,

Based on seeing other people's results from ARUP, your results are almost certainly at least a 3 log reduction.  Only the lab can provide the log reduction, not the Oncs.  Your results are very good, and you should not be feeling down about them.

When having blood drawn for a PCR, make sure the phebotomist uses a lavender top vial.



#6 Ludwigh

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:07 PM

Thanks Trey, you the Man!






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