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#1 SunNsand

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 10:25 PM

  Hello all! I need some help deciphering my lab.

    I saw my Onc today for the results of my bone marrow biopsy. He told me my PH Chromosone is 1 in 20 now. When I was first diagnosed in Feb. 09, my PH Chromosone was 20 in 20. I brought home copies of my labs and I'm trying to figure out where he gets these numbers. It reads Positive for BCR-ABL 1 transcripts, b3a2 and b2a2 (p210). He did say we are on the right track so I am happy with that. He said if the "1" was still there in 6 mths. we would switch chemo pills. "1" sounds pretty good to me...??? That was a nerve-wracking visit. I was more nervous for this visit than I was when I was first diagnosed. Glad it's behind me but I supposed I will go through it every time they go hunting for PH Chromosones.

Bless you all

Robin  Dx: 2/09

Thank you LLS



#2 PhilB

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 04:56 AM

Hi Robin,

1 out of 20 is indeed 'pretty good'.  They would have had to have found more than 7 out of 20 for your response to be defined as 'sub-optimal' at this stage.  The aim though is to keep on getting you an awful lot lower as time goes on so if you haven't achieved 0 out of 20 on the equivalent test at 12 months (highly unlikely that you won't given your progress so far) then switching would probably be indicated at that point.

From here on in, the old 'count 20 cells' test becomes much less useful as the odds of finding one should be tiny.  So attention switches to the much more sensitive PCR test looking for the BCR-ABL protein produced by the cells rather than for the cells themselves.

Some lucky people get 0 out of 20 at 6 months, but 1 is nothing to worry about.  I'm currently waiting for my own 6 month results. (I HATE WAITING!) and I'm expecting something similar.



#3 SunNsand

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 11:02 PM

Thanks for you help. I wasn't familiar with the "out of 20" term.

Waiting is the hardest but I hope you get good results too!

Robin



#4 Trey

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 01:41 PM

In case it is still not clear, the "1 out of 20" refers to the Bone Marrow Biopsy (BMB) test results whereby marrow fluid is viewed under a microscope and 20 white blood cells (only dividing ones) are examined in detail, especially looking for those cells with the Philadelphia Chromosome (leukemic cells), but also looks for other chromosome abnormalities.  This is a laborious process, so only 20 cells are examined.  So in percentage terms, you went from having 100% leukemic white blood cells in your marrow (20 out of 20) down to 10% now (1 out of 20).  That is, of course, a good thing.  A "0 out of 20" would be a Complete Cytogenetic Response (CCR or CCyR), which is your near term goal, but most Oncs would not change to a different CML drug unless there is no CCR by the one year point.

You also said a test report read: "Positive for BCR-ABL 1 transcripts, b3a2 and b2a2 (p210)" -- that would be a PCR test, and it sounds like it was only a "Yes/No" PCR (Qualitative PCR) instead of a PCR that provides an actual number (Quantitative PCR).  You should urge your Onc to do PCRs that provide an actual number result, since you already know that you have CML.  It also seems to say that you have both b3a2 and b2a2 types of leukemic cells, which about 5% of us have, and it  does not necessarily mean anything.

You might want to look at this previous posting for more testing info:

http://community.lls.org/thread/2821?tstart=0



#5 PhilB

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 10:05 AM

Fortunately Trey's knowledge of CML and haemetology generally is way, way better than his maths   1 in 20 = 5%



#6 CaroleL

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:24 PM

I have my BMB report in hand and have been trying to understand it also.  Maybe someone could help.  This report is much more detailed than my previous, and is in fact 5 pages.  some of what it says is:

        Cells analyzed  /  Karotypes

          20                        2

        Cells        Result                                  Interpretation

           20        46,xx,t(9;22) (q34;q11.2)           Clone 1

later on in the report I read:

   BCR/ABL1 Quantitative analysis

   RESULTS:   POSITIVE

   Quantitative Results:

   %BCR/ABL1 (b2+b3)/ABL1:   45.354

INTERPRETATION:

.....positive for the p210 (b3a2) BCR/ABL transcript.  The %BCRABL1/ABL1 is below the reportable range which is 5 copies of the BCR/ABL1

transcript divided by the patient's current ABL1 copy number (0.018%)

Does this refer to PCR?????

I was going to wait until my next consultation at the U of M in October and discuss this with the onc there, but maybe someone can shed some

light on this for me.

Thanks Loads!!   Carole



#7 Trey

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:58 PM

Phil,

Right-o chap.  Good catch.  Hey, is that a new green eye-shade you are sporting?  Very nice!



#8 Trey

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 08:13 PM

Cells analyzed  /  Karotypes

          20                        2

*This BMB found 2 cells out of 20 had a Philadelphia Chromosome (leukemic).  10% (right, Phil?).

Alternatively, this might mean that 2 types of cells were found, which would be normal cells and CML cell(s)

        Cells        Result                                  Interpretation

           20        46,xx,t(9;22) (q34;q11.2)           Clone 1

*This means you are human, female, and have CML (hope none of those were news)

Possibly the "Clone 1" means there was 1 CML cell found???

   RESULTS:   POSITIVE

   Quantitative Results:

   %BCR/ABL1 (b2+b3)/ABL1:   45.354

INTERPRETATION:

.....positive for the p210 (b3a2) BCR/ABL transcript.  The %BCRABL1/ABL1 is below the reportable range which is 5 copies of the BCR/ABL1

transcript divided by the patient's current ABL1 copy number (0.018%)

*The above is a PCR report, but you would need to provide more data to sort it out.  It seems to show that you have both b2a2 and b3a2 types of Philadelphia Chromosome, and that the b2a2 is 45% and the b3a2 is barely detectable.  But I am not sure that is what this means.

Message was edited by: Trey



#9 PhilB

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 06:59 AM

A PCR number as high as 45% seems a little strange for someone who has a major cytological response - only 10% Ph+ on the BMB?  Could this be one of the labs that picked a random factor of 10 for doing the supposed international scale coversion?



#10 CaroleL

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 09:26 PM

Trey

Thanks for your input.

The specifics of my BMB report regarding the PCR are:

FINAL REPORT

Test:  BCR/ABL1 Quantitative Analysis

RESULTS:  POSITIVE

Breakpoint identification: p210(b2a2 & b3a2)          Reference Interval:  Negative

                                    p190 (e1a2)

Quantitative Results:

   % BCR/ABL1 (b2+b3)/ ABL1: 46.354                  Reference Interval:  Negative

   % BCR/ABL1(e1)/ ABL1:  See interpretation        Reference Interval:  Negative

INTERPRETATION:

This specimen i positive for the p210(b3a2 & b2a2)  BCR/ABL1 transcript.

The percentage of BCRABL1/ABL/ for the b2+b3 transcripts is 46.354.

This specimen is also positive for the p190 (e1a2) BCR/ABL1 transcript.

The % BCRABL1/ABL1 is below the reportable range which is 5 copies of

the BCR/ABL1 transcript divided by the patients current ABL1 copy number (0.018%).

Just about the time I think I am beginning to understand some of this something more confusing is presented to me!!

Thanks all!   Carole



#11 Trey

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 10:57 AM

The b2a2, b3a2, and e1a2 are three different types of the Philadelphia Chromosome, as defined by where they break off from chromosomes 9 and 22, and then re-attach at the wrong places.  The Philadelphia Chromosome creates the BCR-ABL that our CML drugs inhibit.  The report says you have at least 2 of the types, and possibly 3 -- I don't know why they combine the b2a2 and b3a2 into one report. If interested, you can ask the Onc if you have all 3 types.  Overall, Gleevec can work against all 3 types of Philadelphia Chromosomes, but there are some issues associated with the e1a2.  It is good news that the e1a2 is at extremely low levels.  I have b2a2 and b3a2 and have done very well on Gleevec.

CML is caused by formation of the Philadelphia Chromosome.
http://atlasgenetics...s/t0922CML.html

People with CML can have various forms of BCR-ABL because the chromosomes can break off and re-attach (fuse) at different points. There are different types of BCR-ABL because when the pieces of chromosomes 9 and 22 break off and switch places (translocation) turning chromosome 22 into the leukemic Philadelphia chromosome, those pieces can break off at one on several locations along both the 9 and 22 chromosomes, which means they also fuse at different points. The locations are called a, b, c, e etc. Most CML is either b3a2 or b2a2 BCR-ABL and sometimes e1a2. In these the "b" is the BCR, and the "a" is the ABL. So if your #22 chromosome broke off at BCR exon #3 (b3), and your #9 chromosome broke off at ABL exon #2 (a2) then they combined to form BCR-ABL form b3a2, and so on. The b3a2 and b2a2 are the most prevalent forms of BCR-ABL and  are found in p210 type CML. Some people have both b3a2 and b2a2 at the same time. Then there is the e1a2 BCR-ABL in p190 CML, which is more rare. So people with CML can have various forms of BCR-ABL because the chromosomes can break off and fuse at different points. There are also other even more rare types such as c3a2/e19a2 or e8a2 and other variants of BCR-ABL, and these probably require very close monitoring since less is known about them. Here is a chart on the various CML breakpoints:
http://jmd.amjpathol...full/6/4/343/F1
Here is another graphic showing the various breakpoints in CML:

http://www.bioscienc...791/figures.htm

(Note that the b2a2 and b3a2 were formerly called e13a2 and e14a2, as if we need more confusion)

http://www.cellsalive.com/pen.htm

Multiple breakpoints occurs in a small percentage of people with CML, and seems to have no real significance in terms of drug response.

But when determining your total level of BCR-ABL, you must add the PCR values for both variants together on each PCR.  Here is some "light reading" on the subject of junction or breakpoint variants:
http://www.bloodjour...tract/92/9/3362
http://www.funpecrp....8_full_text.htm
http://www.pubmedcen...gi?artid=441382

Here is my blog collection of previous postings on the old L&LS Discussion Board, which contains more info under the sections listed below the link:

http://community.lls.org/blogs/CML

DIAGNOSIS

GENETICS OF CML

You may also want to read this previous posting:

http://community.lls.org/thread/3349?tstart=0



#12 pieta

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 09:50 PM

Hello!

I too have a question related to lab results.  My husband was diagnosed with CML more than two years ago. His condition has been under control with regular PCR done at a university lab that uses G6PDH as the control gene.  For complicated reasons having to do with health insurance, his last PCR was done at a different lab, which uses not G6PDH but ABL as the control gene.  So the latest result cannot be compared with those from the last two years.  His last PCR is positive -- the b2a2 transcript is 0.084% (BCR-ABL1/ABL1 ratio).  What would be the rough equivalent of this result in terms of BCR-ABL/G6PDH ratio?  Our oncologist does not know how to interpret the result and has asked my husband to return to the original lab to repeat the PCR.

Has anyone switched labs and encountered similar problems?

p.s.  I have gone to the 2006 article that I found on Trey's blog that argues for harmonizing/standardizing lab protocols and control genes, etc.  But I was not able to locate information regarding G6PDH in that article.

Many thanks in advance and very best wishes to all!



#13 Trey

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 10:30 AM

The PCR result of .084% is probably a good enough representation of his status, even though trends from the same lab are the best overall indicator.  The reason I say this is because his PCR is low enough that you likely do not need to be much concerned about the switch in control genes.  But a re-do with the same lab is also a reasonable approach.

I would add, just for additional info, that there are some who say that G6PDH is the least accurate control gene for CML PCRs.  Most labs prefer either ABL or B2M.  Although we speak about PCRs as though it was just a CML test, it is really a test for all types of DNA issues, and some control genes work better for some types of DNA tests than others.  If you could get your Onc to switch to the lab that uses ABL, that might be a better approach, although since he seems to be doing well, it is not a big issue.  In fact, the double-check of the ABL PCR with the G6PDH PCR is probably even a good thing.



#14 pieta

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 08:58 PM

Thank you very much, Trey!  Your knowledge and compassion is a source of inspiration for us.

I just wanted to give a follow-up on my last posting regarding imcomparability between PCR results due to the use of different labs.  My husband did return to the original lab and repeated his PCR there.  There are the results (blood drawn three weeks apart) in comparison:

BCR-ABL1/ABL1 ratio of 0.00084 is about the equilavent of BCR-ABL/G6PDH ration of 0.00004

(But again, the results could vary even with the very same control genes but different lab equipments, etc.)

I just thought perhaps this might be of some use to anyone who has had our experience of switching labs.

Very best wishes to all






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