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CML Testing Question: Definition of CHR


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#1 Antilogical

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:24 AM

Hi, Folks.  I've read 2 somewhat different descriptions of a Complete Hematological Response:

(1) WBC </= 14.0

(2) Peripheral blood counts return to normal

My last test showed:

PLT = NORMAL (171)

WBC = LOW (3.4)

RBC = LOW (3.33)

HGB = LOW (10.4)

ABSN = LOW (2.0)

I have been on Gleevec for 3 months. My labs all fell below the HIGH or normal range the 2nd week of treatment. (The ones that are low are now slowly rising.) My doctor does not yet consider me to be CHR, but he did run a molecular test and we are awaiting the results.

QUESTION: It's said that people that reach CHR in less than 3 months have a better prognosis.  If it is possible to be MMR or CMR, but not CHR, is that still a good response?

Thanks.


Dx: Sudden severe anemia detected 07/2011, followed by WBC spike. CML Dx 02/2012.

Rx: 03/2012-Gleevec400.  Reduced 02/2013 to Gleevec300 due to side effects (low blood counts).

Response: PCR-Und within 7 mo. on G400. Maintained MMR4-MMR4.5 on G300. PCR-Und since 02/2016.


#2 TeddyB

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:22 PM

From http://www.leukemia-net.org

COMPLETE HEMATOLOGIC RESPONSE:

- PLATELET COUNT   < 450 x 10^9/L

- WBCC     < 10 x 10^9/L

- DIFFERENTIAL WITHOUT IMMATURE GRANULOCYTES (MC,PMC,MB) AND WITH LESS THAN 5% BASOPHILS

- NON-PALPABLE SPLEEN

Trey or someone else with a bit more experience than me will probably make sense of your bloodwork results



#3 Tedsey

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:51 PM

I am not an expert, but it appears CHR just means pretty close to normal, specifically your white blood cell count.  Some people stay on the low end of things for years (even a decade or more, as one of our members here still is).  I think it is too simple to say, for example, if you don't reach CHR in less than 3 months, your prognosis is poor.  Scientists just don't have enough to support that completely.  It is just an "educated" guess.  And it often makes those of us, (namely me), who are not in the "norm" feel terrible.  But the guess is based on how some groups of CMLers reach, what a handful of researchers decide, are milestones.  If you are/were not in one of the samples being studied, then you could be anywhere on the spectrum.  Yes, most people will be in the center, but there is no way right now to determine if you will fall into the middle, right, or left.  Things will play out as they will. 

We all would like to know how long we will live with this disease.  And even though we have what may be considered medically, (or for insurance purposes), "a potentially limited life span", there is no way to know if we would have lived longer if we didn't have CML.  Moreover, we may even survive, as some of us have already, otherwise seemingly healthy friends, acquaintances and family.  Anything is possible and we have very little control over it. 

The time right after dx is the absolute worst.  I know I was obsessed with who would be a mother figure to my baby and toddler.  I begged my husband's sister who is over 60 to be there for my daughter.  Should I plan my funeral?  I was sure I was going to die tomorrow (didn't help that I had an onc who treated me like I would and shouted fire with every CBC and was planning to give me a SCT).  Thus, it is very important to feel comfortable and confident in your onc and/or hematologist.

At this point in my journey, I feel it is too soon to pick out flowers and what dirge should be played.  I think it is safe to recommend that you should put the funeral planning on hold too.  We are not automatically doomed like is such the popular belief when a person is dx with cancer, esp. with CML.  And you will not have one foot in the grave or a direct line to the "great beyond". (You would not believe what has been said to me!  Hope you are spared.)   

I will have been dx 3 years this Nov.  I have not made all the milestones, but I still have a cytogenic response (100mg Sprycel).  I started on Gleevec, but by 9 months, it seemed as if my response was waning (a "so-called" bad sign).  I also had really severe anemia (dangerously low hemoglobin), but a little anemia is not unusual for people on TKIs with CML.  Despite the bad anemia, I still was considered CHR. 

If I were to have a great prognosis, I would be MMR by now and I would have had a good response on Gleevec.  Of course, I am a worried, and I have my good and bad days emotionally.  But there is a chance I could end up on the "excellent" or middle part of the spectrum anyway.  It is still is anybody's guess.  Some people who were told to check into hospice ended up beating all odds.  I just so happen to know someone who I volunteer with who is alive and well 30 years after her aggressive, and seemingly hopeless, lymphoma dx.  She was cured.  In her case, she had a  baby son to live for and a doctor who would not give up on her.  So, miracles happen, whether God or man-driven.   

I feel strong, healthy, and am relatively happy.  I am living my life as I did just before I was dx, (but with a bit more attention and care).  And I don't notice any side-effects that one could say are definitively a result of the TKI or CML.  It gets less scary as time goes by.  Please write if you are feeling down.  It is a good idea to take care of your head and heart as well as your bone marrow.  Like I said, I still have my good and bad days, but I expect to outlive this disease or live long enough for research to definitively keep it from progressing.  So, bully to milestones and survival predictions. 

Nevertheless, I hope as time goes on you come across more and more things that put your soul at ease.

I wish you smooth sailing and quick healing, and, of course, a long and happy life,

Tedsey



#4 Trey

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:59 PM

Since you said "My labs all fell below the HIGH or normal range the 2nd week of treatment." then that was Complete Hematological Response (CHR).  It does not matter if some go too low after that.  CHR is only useful just after diagnosis to see if the WBC and platelets come down from their high levels.  In fact, CHR is a fuzzy goal that does not show much, since it is the BMB, FISH and PCR tests which show whether the important treatment goals are being achieved.

CHR was much more important in pre-Gleevec days when sustainable CHR was a major goal which few CML patients were able to achieve.  Before 1999 the Oncs thought achieving and holding CHR was a great accomplishment since there was little chance of success beyond that.  And achieving anything beyond a sustained CHR such as CCyR was considered an amazing feat, except for short periods using harsh chemotherapy.  It is a good thing that we can now blow past CHR in a few weeks and have a very high probability of achieving at least sustainable CCyR and usually even better.



#5 Antilogical

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:29 PM

I thank you all for your responses.  I'm looking forward to the day when I am not thinking about this 24/7.


Dx: Sudden severe anemia detected 07/2011, followed by WBC spike. CML Dx 02/2012.

Rx: 03/2012-Gleevec400.  Reduced 02/2013 to Gleevec300 due to side effects (low blood counts).

Response: PCR-Und within 7 mo. on G400. Maintained MMR4-MMR4.5 on G300. PCR-Und since 02/2016.


#6 Guest_billronm_*

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:33 PM

It is so hard not to think about it 24/7  right after your dx.  When we first hear that word cancer, most of us don't hear anything else our onc is saying. It took me about a year to stop thinking about it all the time, and if anything unusual showed up on my body (lump,rash,cold sore, and other dumb things) I panicked and thought my medicine wasn't working.  But as time goes by, you will think of it less and less, and be able to cope with it better.I"m going on 5 years in August since my dx. I started on Gleevac, but I had bad gi problems, before cml and G just made them worse.But I responded well to it, now I'm on Sprycel and doing very well,as a matter of fact my onc just reduced my dosage to 50mg. a day. My problem with Sprycel is anemia and low iron. But this reduced doseage should help a lot. So hang in there it does get better, and we're all here for you. Sincerely Billie



#7 Antilogical

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

My PCR analysis results after 3 months of Gleevec are in.  The onc says he is pleased with my response, and does not want to change my dosage for now.

- BCR/ABL fusion transcript = POSITIVE at 0.1% K562 expression.

- 2.320 log reduction from immediate prior value from (2/24/2012).

- 2.477 log reduction from average baseline of 30% for patients at CML diagnosis.

I guess any kind of progress is a really good thing. 


Dx: Sudden severe anemia detected 07/2011, followed by WBC spike. CML Dx 02/2012.

Rx: 03/2012-Gleevec400.  Reduced 02/2013 to Gleevec300 due to side effects (low blood counts).

Response: PCR-Und within 7 mo. on G400. Maintained MMR4-MMR4.5 on G300. PCR-Und since 02/2016.


#8 Ray99

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:10 PM

Congratulation.  That is a pretty good response!  Almost reach MMR in three month.  What is K562 expression?  How does it relate to IS (international scale)?



#9 Trey

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:40 PM

K562:

http://community.lls.org/thread/2537



#10 Pin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:08 AM

That is a fantastic response! - I hope your doctor told you that :) Congratulations!


Diagnosed 9 June 2011, Glivec 400mg June 2011-July 2017, Tasigna 600mg July 2017-present (switched due to intolerable side effects, and desire for future cessation attempt).

Commenced monthly testing when MR4.0 lost during 2012.

 

2017: <0.01, <0.01, 0.005 (200mg Glivec, Adelaide) <0.01, 0.001 (new test sensitivity)

2016: <0.01, <0.01, PCRU, 0.002 (Adelaide)

2015: <0.01, <0.01, <0.01, 0.013

2014: PCRU, <0.01, <0.01, <0.01, <0.01

2013: 0.01, 0.014, 0.016, 0.026, 0.041, <0.01, <0.01 

2012: <0.01, <0.01, 0.013, 0.032, 0.021

2011: 38.00, 12.00, 0.14


#11 Pin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:10 AM

Trey -  thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen it before. What a gift to all of us :)


Diagnosed 9 June 2011, Glivec 400mg June 2011-July 2017, Tasigna 600mg July 2017-present (switched due to intolerable side effects, and desire for future cessation attempt).

Commenced monthly testing when MR4.0 lost during 2012.

 

2017: <0.01, <0.01, 0.005 (200mg Glivec, Adelaide) <0.01, 0.001 (new test sensitivity)

2016: <0.01, <0.01, PCRU, 0.002 (Adelaide)

2015: <0.01, <0.01, <0.01, 0.013

2014: PCRU, <0.01, <0.01, <0.01, <0.01

2013: 0.01, 0.014, 0.016, 0.026, 0.041, <0.01, <0.01 

2012: <0.01, <0.01, 0.013, 0.032, 0.021

2011: 38.00, 12.00, 0.14


#12 Ray99

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:27 AM

Thanks,  Trey

A very touching story.



#13 CallMeLucky

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:21 AM

Doctors have such a lousy way of presenting things.  When the doctor says something like "I'm pleased with this response, so we'll keep your dosage where it is for now."  We immediately start to think about a future when it may need to be changed.  It gives the impression the doctor is not 100% satisfied but still waiting to see what they are going to do.  Your response has been awesome, very fast drop and suggests a great start.

With regard to CHR - it is not uncommon for counts to go too low.  For starters you have to understand that as your body was getting filled up with leukemia cells your normal healthy cell production was dialing back in order to try and maintain some sense of balance.  It was getting a bit crowded in there.  Think of a city overrun by thugs, the good citizens are all hiding inside.  When the Gleevec SWAT team came in and started killing all the thugs, the density of the population dropped really fast.  Slowly the good citizens are starting to return, but that takes time.

Also for some the drug itself will suppress your normal production so it may not fully come back up to "normal" and now you will have a new normal.  What they are really looking for with CHR is for your body to stop over producing White Blood cells and putting pressure on your spleen.  CHR also is the first way they can tell if your body is responding to the drug.

Seems like you are off to a good start.


Date  -  Lab  -  Scale  -  Drug  -  Dosage MG  - PCR
2010/Jul -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 1.2%
2010/Oct -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0.25%
2010/Dec -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0.367%
2011/Mar -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0.0081%
2011/Jun -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0%
2011/Sep -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0.00084%
2011/Dec -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0%
2012/Mar -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0.004%
2012/Jun -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0%
2012/Sep -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Gleevec  - 400 - 0%
2012/Dec -  MSKCC  -  Non-IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2013/Jan -  Quest  -  IS  -  Sprycel  -  50-60-70  - 0%
2013/Mar -  Quest  -  IS  -  Sprycel  -  60-70  - 0%
2013/Apr -  CUMC  -  Non-IS  -  Sprycel  - 50 - 0.036%
2013/May -  CUMC  -  Non-IS  -  Sprycel  - 50 - 0.046%
2013/Jun -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 50 - 0.0239%
2013/Jul -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 70 - 0.0192%
2013/Jul -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 70 - 0.0034%
2013/Oct -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 70 - 0.0054%
2014/Jan -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 70 - 0.0093%
2014/Mar -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0.013%
2014/Apr -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0.0048%
2014/Jul -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2014/Nov -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0.047%
2014/Dec -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2015/Mar -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2015/Jun -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2015/Sep -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2015/Dec -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2016/Mar -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0.0228%
2016/Jun -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2016/Sep -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2016/Dec -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2017/Mar -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2017/Jun -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2017/Sep -  Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  - 100 - 0%
2017/Dec - Genoptix  -  IS  -  Sprycel  -  100 - 0%
 

 


#14 TeddyB

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:08 AM

Great response antilogical.

My 3,5 month checkup coming up in 2 weeks, i can my only hope my response is as good as yours.



#15 Antilogical

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:34 PM

Actually, I saw the results posted to my on-line health account. When I didn't hear anything from the doctor, I contacted his office to ask if he was satisfied with my results or did he want to change anything.  The onco nurse replied that (1) cml patients always get nervous when they see the word POSITIVE, and (2) this was a GOOD result.  Mostly, it has been the wonderful comments on this board that have calmed me down & made me feel at peace with my current status.

I thank you all!


Dx: Sudden severe anemia detected 07/2011, followed by WBC spike. CML Dx 02/2012.

Rx: 03/2012-Gleevec400.  Reduced 02/2013 to Gleevec300 due to side effects (low blood counts).

Response: PCR-Und within 7 mo. on G400. Maintained MMR4-MMR4.5 on G300. PCR-Und since 02/2016.


#16 Antilogical

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:35 PM

TeddyB - I'll be looking for a good report. Fingers crossed!


Dx: Sudden severe anemia detected 07/2011, followed by WBC spike. CML Dx 02/2012.

Rx: 03/2012-Gleevec400.  Reduced 02/2013 to Gleevec300 due to side effects (low blood counts).

Response: PCR-Und within 7 mo. on G400. Maintained MMR4-MMR4.5 on G300. PCR-Und since 02/2016.


#17 Susan61

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:21 PM

Hi Trey:  Thank You for that story about K562.  It was very overwhelming to learn all of that.  When do you spend time with your family with all the research you do, and the constant help you give to all of us?  We all think your amazing for all you have learned and all that you give constantly.

Thank You

Susan






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