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#1 pammartin

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:33 PM

I have read many posts including the current ones about lowering dosage after a time, but I am confused about my situation.  I am experiencing good results, but I have developed angioedema around my eye area, some days it is pretty severe, others not so bad.  Also, today's labs are lower than they have been for a while. 

White count is 4.1 I realize not that low but lower than it has been since December,

red count is 3.1

platelets are holding at 210,000

all liver and kidney levels are good

forgot to ask about neut, my mistake

So, my question is, how long should someone wait before they consider reducing the level of Sprycel they are taking, six months PCR

87% October 2011

.004% January

less than .001% April

I do realize i will have to change doctors to even consider a reduction, my current doctors do not entertain any reduction less than 100mg unless life threatening conditions are occurring.  The trend is still to hit hard and fast, but I just read the current post about Gleevec and reduction and perhaps the idea is finally being considered to reduce after a period of time if response is positive.  I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions on where I might go from here or is it too soon to look at reduction.  I hate taking steroids, and that is what I am going to have to do for the edema, but because my labs are lower, thought I might investigate another route.

Thanks anyone/everyone in advance for thoughts and replies

Pam



#2 pamsouth

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:53 PM

Hey PamM,

I am not the expert here.  I think the choice of how low to let your counts go would vary from person to person, even the scholarly.  A lot would depend on if the patient has a lot of trust in doctors and if they would rather comply with their doctor, then the alternatives, which takes some risk, the way I look at it, you take a calculated risk either way.  Some patients would not want to do their own research and make that kind of decision, if it is agains their doctor.  It can be rather intimating to challenge your doctor and stressful to change doctor.   I often wonder from the old timers CML patients, if they would have done things differently, looking back.  Then again doctors can get very upset if you don't comply or question them.  Then it gets scary as to finding a doc you can work with.  You know that doc is getting paid big bucks for all us cancer patients.  So are the drug companies.

Me for one if I knew what i know now,  I would never have let my CBC counts, including my blood pressure which dropped down to 60/30, get that low again.  I mean they hit you hard then I had to go to the hospital for IV. I know they say, get rid of as many CML PH+,  so your healthy cells get a chance to recover while CML is slow.  But then I wonder about the things that can happen on low counts, it sort of a trade off.  I think most new  diagnosed are afraid to go against doctors orders, I know I was to a point.  But wasn't long I was flying off to another cancer center.  Same goes for doctors, some go by guideline and others not so strict, but I think most docs like to stick to the guideline, or protocol, maybe that protects the doctor to say I went by NCCA guideline, or they are just more comfortable especially if they are not CML specialist or have had a lot of CML patients.  Then again I think that is the was onc are taught from years gone by hit the patient hard.  I think perhaps times have changed.

I don't have an answer for you as everyone is different. 

Just Saying, do your homework, get lots of opinions for others and  the experts on the board. Then go by your instinct, cause your the only you, and the only one that has got to live, with right or wrong choices.  No one else in your exact shoes. Not that there is a perfect solution. At least not until they find the cure. Which at present is still the BMT.

P.S. Just got back from dinner.  I was thinking I should clear things up a couple of things about flying off to another cancer center..  Back in 2005 and 200, I flew to MD Anderson Houston Tx.   I live in Indiana.    MD Anderson along with my local hospitals were have clinical trials of 400Mg vs 800 mg of Gleevec.  There wasn't a whole lot of data on a lot of things back then. MD Anderson was also going by the national guidelines. 

However I decided as my counts started to come back up, not to go on a higher dose, and risk getting low counts again.  I wanted to wait until there was more data, which I knew was a few years down the road.  Plus there was the quality of life issue for me.  That was another reason I didn't want to change to a newer drug unless there was a need.  My onc had said better drugs out, but I knew that wasn't always true for everyone, as it takes many years for studies and the longterm out come of patients. 

So It was just a personal decision not to let my counts get so low, again.

Prayers, PamSouth


PamSouth


#3 hannibellemo

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:17 PM

PamM,

Your counts are great; higher than mine and I've been on S for over 2 years. I think the idea  is to wait two years after reaching MMR before reducing your dosage. Do you take a diuretic for your edema? Dr. Druker recommends Dyazide because it is more potassium sparing. Just a suggestion.

Pat


Pat

 

"You can't change the direction of the wind but you can adjust your sails."

DX 12/08; Gleevec 400mg; liver toxicity; Sprycel 100mg.; CCyR 4/10; MMR 8/10; Pleural Effusion 2/12; Sprycel 50mg. Maintaining MMR; 2/15 PCRU; 8/16 drifting in and out of undetected like a wave meeting the shore. Retired 12/23/2016! 18 months of PCRU, most recent at Mayo on 7/25/17 was negative at their new sensitivity reporting of 0.003.<p>


#4 pammartin

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:51 PM

Thanks Pat,

I was thinking of that also, the diuretic instead of the steroids, see what happens, I can always take the steroids if another option does not work.  I was going to wait to change docs until after the summer PCR but I think I will search before that.  I am not in distress, but if I were ever to be, then I would be searching for doc and dealing with whatever the problem was.  I did call both oncologist and hematologist, they stated the edema was not due to the Sprycel so call the PCP.  The PCP is fairly clueless, she is great, listens and tries to understand, but knows nothing of the interaction and what should or should not be taken, so she ends up calling the higher powers anyway.  I have thought about this and continue to argue with myself, but I should have a doctor I am comfortable with and one that I can look to for information if I have a question.  Thanks for the advice and reminding me my numbers are pretty good.  I think there is a part of me that would like to reduce the Sprycel dosage so I look for any reason I can.  Less dosage=less side effects.  I am in a hurry and have to slow down, need to fix what I can and deal with what I can't. I can fix the idea I need a doc I can rely on and ask questions too without waiting days or have no return call, can't change the suggested safe time frame before lowering dosage without a real medical reason. 



#5 pammartin

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:51 PM

Hi Pamsouth,

I was way laid while reading your post, I have been having trouble with something tearing down my bird feeders, I looked out a bit ago and there is a small black bear happily eating the bird seed I just put out this evening about 8 p.m.  I will post photos in a bit, they are dark, but I think you can see the bear.

Thank you for the reply I will read over it again after I calm down, that creature was about 20 feet from my patio door happily tearing apart my feeder and not worried about me taking photos of it! 



#6 Guest_billronm_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:20 PM

Hi Pam, M,

   Everyone knows I don't understand the numbers, But when I had my bw done in Jan. my wbc was 4.5, the cc center just sent me some results from monday and my wbc is 8.0,In Jan. they automatically gave me my numbers,  I just had my bw done Mon. and the nurse called me Tuesday and said don't decrease my dosage. And have the same bw done May 30, there was no way they could have gotten my results in one day, so I told her to send me a copy when they get the rest of the results, they sent me some results today but not all of them, but I compared them to my results from Jan. and they look kind of scary to me. I'm not going to panic, I'm not going to panic,I'm not going to panic, because I'm an idiot when it comes to cml numbers, and computers, I'm a wreck which is why I stay away from these reports. Even my carbon dioxide numbers went up, I don't smoke, but these bp pills make me so tired I get worn out going to the mail box and sometimes I get out of breath. But I'm not going to panic!  I'm going to get a glass of wine instead,  Love Billie



#7 Judy2

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:21 PM

Hi Pam South,

You wrote that back in the year 200 you switched cancer centers. NO WONDER YOU ARE TIRED, YOU HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH CML FOR ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWELVE YEARS!!!  I have to say, you look damn good considering.

Hi Pam Martin,

Talk to you later.

xo,

Judy



#8 Guest_billronm_*

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:32 PM

Hi Judy,

  Are you feeling better? I hope so! We should make each other a promise that we'll walk to the corner every day!  Maybe that will get my dead a-- moving Lots o Luv Billie   If Pam wants to shovel b2 gravel she's on her own!



#9 pamsouth

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:40 PM

Judy2,

I LOVE IT, I LOVE IT.  You are absolutely right "I LOOK DAM GOOD as I HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH CML FOR ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWELVE YEARS!!  It was them dam TKI I have been b.... about.  Sorry about the language, but I have lost my religion.

Love You!!  Still Laughing!  What could be any better then laughing about living with cml for over 1,000 years.....  Go figure....

You are such a sweet one, to think of all these wonderful little endearments.

Love PamSouth


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#10 pamsouth

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:45 PM

Billie Murawski wrote:

Hi Pam, M,

   Everyone knows I don't understand the numbers, But when I had my bw done in Jan. my wbc was 4.5, the cc center just sent me some results from monday and my wbc is 8.0,In Jan. they automatically gave me my numbers,  I just had my bw done Mon. and the nurse called me Tuesday and said don't decrease my dosage. And have the same bw done May 30, there was no way they could have gotten my results in one day, so I told her to send me a copy when they get the rest of the results, they sent me some results today but not all of them, but I compared them to my results from Jan. and they look kind of scary to me. I'm not going to panic, I'm not going to panic,I'm not going to panic, because I'm an idiot when it comes to cml numbers, and computers, I'm a wreck which is why I stay away from these reports. Even my carbon dioxide numbers went up, I don't smoke, but these bp pills make me so tired I get worn out going to the mail box and sometimes I get out of breath. But I'm not going to panic!  I'm going to get a glass of wine instead,  Love Billie


PamSouth


#11 Judy2

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:46 PM

Hi Billie,

I'm feeling better. How are you doing? Are you adjusting to your bp medicine yet? Actually, I still don't have much energy but I guess I can live with it.

I am with you, Pam is on her own when it comes to shoveling gravel. I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of her in action, though.

xo,

Judy



#12 Judy2

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:51 PM

Hi Pam S.,

I'm glad you enjoyed my reply, I couldn't stop laughing when I read what you wrote. You are right, it's nice to be able to laugh together.

xo,

Judy

P.S. Please call me Judy, we really should be on a first name basis by now.



#13 pamsouth

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:53 PM

Pam wrote:

Billie Murawski wrote:

Hi Pam, M,

   Everyone knows I don't understand the numbers, But when I had my bw done in Jan. my wbc was 4.5, the cc center just sent me some results from monday and my wbc is 8.0,In Jan. they automatically gave me my numbers,  I just had my bw done Mon. and the nurse called me Tuesday and said don't decrease my dosage. And have the same bw done May 30, there was no way they could have gotten my results in one day, so I told her to send me a copy when they get the rest of the results, they sent me some results today but not all of them, but I compared them to my results from Jan. and they look kind of scary to me. I'm not going to panic, I'm not going to panic,I'm not going to panic, because I'm an idiot when it comes to cml numbers, and computers, I'm a wreck which is why I stay away from these reports. Even my carbon dioxide numbers went up, I don't smoke, but these bp pills make me so tired I get worn out going to the mail box and sometimes I get out of breath. But I'm not going to panic!  I'm going to get a glass of wine instead,  Love Billie

Billie,  I don't want you to panic, or be a wreck, but sense you already got the lab report, why don't you share the number with us. That is weird the nurse calling you and saying don't change the dosage, when they couldn't have had the labs, that is strange!!!  Maybe she was just referring to your CBC they can get them in Minutes its the PCR that takes awhile. But I have went in to a cancer center and had a drawl for a CBC and had it with in 15 to 20 minutes. So I am assuming it is your CBC they are looking at.

I was thinking you were on Sprycel 100 mg and 50 mg every other day.  Did I spell that right, it is about 1 am and I am braindead.

Well got to check in with PamM and the bears.  You know I think that is what keep PamM going all those critters.

How is the whine, sorry wine, (see I told you i got sundowners) are you feeling better?  Glad you don't smoke!!

Judy just gave me a good laugh.  Don't think I need any wine.

PamS


PamSouth


#14 pamsouth

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:57 PM

pammartin wrote:

Hi Pamsouth,

I was way laid while reading your post, I have been having trouble with something tearing down my bird feeders, I looked out a bit ago and there is a small black bear happily eating the bird seed I just put out this evening about 8 p.m.  I will post photos in a bit, they are dark, but I think you can see the bear.

Thank you for the reply I will read over it again after I calm down, that creature was about 20 feet from my patio door happily tearing apart my feeder and not worried about me taking photos of it! 

PamM,

It is 1am and I have a bit of sundowners/braindead, but did you day you had a bear about 20 feet from your patio door, yea the door with glass, and you are taking pictures.

You said you were laying down, so maybe you are dreaming??

Catch you tomorrow,  PamS


PamSouth


#15 Guest_billronm_*

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:46 AM

Hi Pam S,

I'll try to cipher the numbers from what little bit I know. not all of them but the ones I recognize.

Jan. 2012                                                                                                                                           April 2012

wbc 4.5                                                                                                                                                      wbc 8.0

rbc  3.42                                                                                                                                                     rbc  3.53

hbg 11.9                                                                                                                                                     hgb 10.9

hct 35.5                                                                                                                                                      hgt 32.9

potassium 5.4                                                                                                                                            potassium 4.6

carbon dioxide 25                                                                                                                                      carbon dioxide 30

platelet 281                                                                                                                                             platelet 342

mcv 103.8                                                                                                                                                     93.1

mch 34.7                                                                                                                                                      mch 30.9

                                                                                                                                                                     mvp 7.3 fl

This is the best I can do, these are the ones that were highlighted.                     I guess I'm doomed                                   Lots o Luv Billie



#16 Pin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:31 AM

Pam, with results that good I think your biggest challenge is going to be finding a doctor that is ok with dose reduction. You've done so well I can't see why they won't at least trial standard dosage (is that 70mg?) for you at least to start with and see what happens - if you don't hold onto your PCRU well, that might change things of course but if the swelling is impacting on your quality of life, well that is a serious problem. I think if it were me and I could tolerate the eye swelling (depending of course on how bad it is), I would probably wait for 3 PCRU results in a row to feel like it was stable and then I could compare what happens with the dose reduction with that. Also, is it fluid retention or hives type swelling? My eye oedema was a big problem for the first 6 months or so of my treatment, but (for now!) it seems to have calmed down a bit - I think it's making room for all the other side effects to creep back in

Also, Billie - no need to panic just yet! If high white cell counts is the only issue, I don't think it's a problem just yet (also, it's still well within normal range) Enjoy your wine!

Cheers, Pin.


Diagnosed 9 June 2011, Glivec 400mg June 2011-July 2017, Tasigna 600mg July 2017-present (switched due to intolerable side effects, and desire for future cessation attempt).

Commenced monthly testing when MR4.0 lost during 2012.

 

2017: <0.01, <0.01, 0.005 (200mg Glivec, Adelaide) <0.01, 0.001 (new test sensitivity)

2016: <0.01, <0.01, PCRU, 0.002 (Adelaide)

2015: <0.01, <0.01, <0.01, 0.013

2014: PCRU, <0.01, <0.01, <0.01, <0.01

2013: 0.01, 0.014, 0.016, 0.026, 0.041, <0.01, <0.01 

2012: <0.01, <0.01, 0.013, 0.032, 0.021

2011: 38.00, 12.00, 0.14


#17 hannibellemo

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:44 AM

Billie,

I do think it is amusing that our first instinct is to panic when our counts increase even in the "normal" range. I'll never forget when mine finally reached the normal range, I thought there was something really wrong!

Have you been sick or maybe fighting off a cold? That could also count for the increase. Why don't you go back in a week or two and have them redraw (I personally wouldn't wait until the end of the month, but then that is just panicy ole me).

Pat


Pat

 

"You can't change the direction of the wind but you can adjust your sails."

DX 12/08; Gleevec 400mg; liver toxicity; Sprycel 100mg.; CCyR 4/10; MMR 8/10; Pleural Effusion 2/12; Sprycel 50mg. Maintaining MMR; 2/15 PCRU; 8/16 drifting in and out of undetected like a wave meeting the shore. Retired 12/23/2016! 18 months of PCRU, most recent at Mayo on 7/25/17 was negative at their new sensitivity reporting of 0.003.<p>


#18 scuba

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:29 AM

PamM - I take 20mg Sprycel*. I went from 55% PCR to 0.06% (Feb. test) in seven months. My next PCR is in a few days and I half expect another drop in PCR if not outright CMR.

You have already hit your CML hard and fast. Your Leukemia burden has been reduced an order of magnitude lower than mine (one log lower) - and I got to where I am on only 20mg Sprycel*.

There is mounting evidence that high dose Sprycel may not be necessary to maintain for long periods - that starting high and reducing is becoming the preferred path. Dr. Cortes is leading in this research. Admittedly I am one of his guinea pigs. I have asked him several times if I should increase my dose (just to 40mg) to "hit the CML hard and fast") and he told me I am already doing that. And he also said, "No".

If side affects are an issue for you - and your note suggests that it is - then dose reduction is not only recommended by preferred. CML at the level you are at - is a very slow disease. You can afford to take 3 months and try the lower dose and test again. Chances are your PCR will either be the same or even go lower. And if it goes lower - you have a new lower dose and less side affects from which to continue.

* I do take 4 grams C3 Curcumin with Piperine every day. There is evidence that Curcumin augments the effectiveness of Sprycel. It is possible, although not known for sure, that my low dose Sprycel is working as well as it is because I also take Curcumin. I am not willing to stop Curcumin to find out if my low dose Sprycel response continues. Curcumin has other healthy benefits that I enjoy (arthritis). Dr. Cortes suspects the Curcumin is helping "a little bit", but that I would probably get the response I am seeing anyway with the 20mg. Sprycel because he has other patients on low dose Sprycel (20mg.) that are having a somewhat similar response to me (who don't take Curcumin) - but he admitted my response is deeper and faster than any of his 20mg. patients. He is curious if I can get to CMR on 20mg. Also - I have no side affects that I can feel. None. And that, more than anything else is why patients should consider dose reduction as a viable strategy.


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#19 pammartin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:45 AM

Judy, you are a riot!!!!!!  Pamsouth, although the topic is serious I love it when it goes to a funny, typos can sometimes be a great thing! 



#20 pammartin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:46 AM

Yes a bear, I posted photos but they are dark going to try to lighten them up today.






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