33 replies to this topic

[LivingWellWithCML]

Thanks Michael - that makes sense.  It's the reference to CD34~+ that has me wondering though, because my understanding is that refers to apoptosis in leukemic -stem- cells specifically...

[Trey]

More than just the quiescence (dormancy) issue, stem cells (both leukemic and normal) have alternative survival pathways that make them very difficult to kill.  The TKI drugs kill the lower level leukemic cells fairly easily, but the higher level leukemic cells are harder to kill with TKI drugs.  The two issues combined is why TKI drugs are not believed to kill leukemic stem cells.  But there is a slight possibility that given continued pounding by TKI drugs over many years, and elimination of all the lower level leukemic cells, the TKI drugs could force the remaining few leukemic stem cells out into the open to divide, where they are more susceptible to T-cells and other direct-kill drugs that might come along in the future.  Although I am neutral on the issue of Curcumin, I have a healthy skepticsm about anything that is purported to kill all types of cancers, from solid tumors to leukemia.

[Trey]

I would add that the Chinese doctoral student paper cited as a source stated that "Comparing to the control, no significant differences of Bcr-Abl mRNA were screened with Cur groups".  So by PCR, the Curcumin had no observable impact on the leukemia.  Somehow that factoid was buried in their paper.

[scuba]

Trey wrote, "The TKI drugs kill the lower level leukemic cells fairly easily, but the higher level leukemic cells are harder to kill with TKI drugs"

That is why Sprycel is interesting.  It works differently than either Tasigna or Gleevec and is reported to target "higher" up the Cell line.  I suspect that is why it has been effective for me vs. Gleevec.  My CML problem seems to be centered higher up the ladder (although it puzzles me why the Neutrophils only were severely suppressed if that were true? - higher up the ladder should affect more of the differentiated cells?).

Curcumin is nutritional support.  In high dose (8 grams), there is strong enough evidence that it can be therapeutic (especially in myeloma).  In low dose (normal tumeric rich diet) its affect is anecdotal.  All of the research on Curcumin suggests strong dose correlation - so getting enough Curcumin in the blood is key to any positive affect.

But you are basically correct.  Until there is a convincg trial under scientific conditions - we don't know.  I suggested to Dr. Aggarwal and Dr. Cortes to collaborate.  But the reality is they would have to write a proposal to the government for funding.  And Clinic trials are very very expensive.  So they do in vitro/vivo experiments on cells and mice.  Doing a thorough trial on humans will require a lot of dollars.

So I am my own trial and will track progress.  It's interesting - even if this works for me, there is no way Dr. Cortes could recommend this to another patient even if he believes the results.  Unless it is FDA approved - he has to refrain from going outside the box.  I don't blame him.  I just hope my experiment works.

[scuba]

Trey wrote, "I would add that the Chinese doctoral student paper cited as a source stated that "Comparing to the control, no significant differences of Bcr-Abl mRNA were screened with Cur groups".  So by PCR, the Curcumin had no observable impact on the leukemia.  Somehow that factoid was buried in their paper."

That makes sense - when I was on Curcumin alone (albeit lower than 8 grams dose) - my PCR counts did not go down - they even went up slightly - but my WBC's were well controlled.  Curcumin does not seem to affect the PH+ chromosome (by the way Dr. Aggarwal suggested that it does) in any significant way.   Curcumin seems to affect cell death at a lower level.  It's more of a population control.  So instead of CML taking 2 years to kill you - it takes say - 5 years to kill you or even longer.  As long as the body is making PH+ copies - it's just a matter of time.  That is why Curcumin + TKI is so interesting.  One agent that preps the population for slaughter by another agent.

[Trey]

Since the Chinese student paper was looking at Gleevec plus Curcumin in combination, and there was no observable benefit by PCR (which is what we all rely on as a metric for progress), the bottom line is that it was not beneficial in that study.  I do not know of any study that shows a benefit from Curcumin by PCR.

[LivingWellWithCML]

Ah, I missed that bit about the lack of PCR benefit ---- bah humbug.  Regardless, I don't plan on substituting Gleevec for curcumin anytime soon.  Couple them together though?  Maybe - I don't think it could hurt.  But I would like to look at ways to eventually reduce my dose down to 200mg after reaching a deep level of response (similar to how you have, Trey).  The loser the dose to maintain PCRu, the better.....

[jenz]

Trey, is this what you are talking about when you say PCR does not show improvement using Curcumin?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15498113

[scuba]

But it does show:

from the paper, "Curcumin can inhibit the cellular proliferation and the expression of  STAT5 mRNA, and down-regulate the activation of STAT5 in primary CML  cells. Curcumin may be used in treatment of leukemia."

[Trey]

Jen,

That is not the paper, however that does not show PCR benefits, either.  All this "data" is just laboratory petri dish analysis.  It does not take into account that Curcumin decomposes quickly in the body and it is hard to get it to the cells, whether actual Curcumin or the concentrated stuff.  To answer your question, I was referring to the Chinese student paper Michael was using as a source of information (paper link was posted by Gerry):

http://www.china-papers.com/?p=99933

Michael,

Now if we could just get all of our leukemic cells to jump into a petri dish we could cure CML.

[LivingWellWithCML]

Maybe we should mix some of Michael's favorite wine + whiskey into the petri dish as well?  Perhaps some high-quality cigar ashes?  This really could be the cure we've been looking for.........

[scuba]

I take Curcumin.  I am out of the closet. 

[Shalom]

Even if they found a cure who warranty our lives? nobody only god knows so lets take scotch and curcumin.

[scuba]

The Scotch to go with your Curcumin.  Petri dish not included.

Johnnie Walker King George V