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#1 momruns

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 06:46 PM

Hello,

I went through a lot of older posts and was questioning the use of Curcumin.  I did a little research and was wondering if anyone out there takes this, how much, and where is a legit place to purchase.  Thanks for your input.

Loreta



#2 LivingWellWithCML

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:18 PM

Check out this thread -- Michael's the poster boy for Circumin........

http://community.lls.org/thread/11509


Dan - Atlanta, GA

CML CP Diagnosed March 2011

Gleevec 400mg


#3 Guest_billronm_*

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:52 PM

Dear Loreta,

If you look at the BCR-ABL post that is up on the board right now. He talks about cucurmin a lot. Michael swears by it.

                                                                                                                                   Sincerely Billie



#4 scuba

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 08:24 AM

Hi Loreta,

Curcumin has been shown to increase the effectiveness of Sprycel in Colon cancer studies.  Its affect in CML is unknown.  Dr. Aggarwal (M.D. Anderson), however, is researching Curcumin and suggests that the mechanism for Cancer control is in the programmed cell death pathway (apoptosis).  Curcumin is believed to cause Cancer cells, including Leukemia, to enter a normal death cycle (Ravindran, J; Prasad, S; Aggarwal, BB (2009). "Curcumin and cancer cells: how many ways can curry kill tumor cells selectively?". The AAPS journal 11 (3): 495-510).

The effect is very much dose dependent.  Dr. Aggarwal suggests at least 8 grams of Curcumin 95% powder (in capsule form) to be effective.  Results in Myeloma patients have been very encourging: http://margaret.healthblogs.org/

Here is a general link on Curcumin:  http://www.curcuminresearch.org/

I take a more bio-available form of Curcumin (BCM-95) that is 7-10 times more bio-available (gets into the bloodstream).  I buy it from Progressive labs.  I recommend that if people want to try Curcumin that they first go the 8 gram route and gradually increase their dose over several weeks to test their tolerance.  I started with 1 gram and worked my way to 8 grams with no side affects over two weeks.  Most people will have no side affects whatsoever up to 12 grams.   And any side affects are usually an upset stomach or diarhea - and that goes away over time.  Increasing dose gradually seems to avoid that problem.

Whereas TKI's are toxic chemicals that can cause problems in and of themselves, Curcumin is a natural product and is good for the body (anti-inflammatory, circulatory) apart from its cancer affects.

I take Curcumin as an adjunct to the Sprycel I take and believe it has enabled me to have very good results while on a very low dose of Sprycel (20mg.).  I am FISH negative and approaching CMR.  I have had a 2 log reduction in PCR in two months once I was at the 8 gram level and on Sprycel 20mg. continuous.  I was told that 20mg. Sprycel would not cause this level of result this fast.  I fully expect - and anticipate that at my next PCR in about two months I will be at 3 log reduction PCR or even PCRu.  My Leukemia counts are dropping that fast.  I believe that Curcumin alone will be able to keep me PCRu should I get there.  I intend to test that belief.

One final comment:  Some people will suggest if this "root" or natural low cost herb can be this affective against Cancer - then why is it not a "miracle" drug that is all over the news.  My answer is Curcumin by itself may be able to slow a Cancer or maybe even keep Cancer in check for a time and prevent its development (Sub-asian peoples who eat Curry have a 15-20% lower Leukemia incidence than in the west), but it is not a cure - so far nothing "cures".  The key I believe is that Curcumin in conjuction with Sprycel (and perhaps other TKI's) enables the Sprycel to be much more effective.   And its chemical properties are known to muck up cancer cell replication in vitro.  Since I am experiencing a positive result, I have made Curcumin a part of my daily nutrition.


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#5 Shalom

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 03:12 PM

Do you know if some other people takes curcurmin? I am taking Gleevec and I want to know if this curcurmin can affect the work of Gleevec let me know if you know about this.



#6 scuba

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 04:02 PM

I do not know of any CML patients that take Curcumin.  I do not know if Curcumin is synergistic with Gleevec.


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#7 Shalom

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 04:05 PM

Thank you Michael



#8 Dsrwbr4536

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 08:34 PM

Hi everyone. Just wondering Michael, why this is not being used by more doctors if it can only have positive benefits? Thank you



#9 scuba

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 08:54 PM

That's an age old question - why you don't hear about more natural methods for healing.  Truth is - we know that eating right, getting exercise is a key to long health - correct?

When you go to see a doctor for what ails you - they don't prescribe apples.  They prescribe some drug.

The pharamceutical industry is a big business.  Novartis, BMS, and others pay doctors a lot of money to do trials, recruit patients and carry out the FDA reporting.  There is simply no infrastructure to do the work for non-profit natural products that can't be patented.  In short that is your answer.  There is no money in it.  There are non-M.D. doctors - Ph.D's that do research at the university level.  Dr. Aggarwal is one of them.  But these individuals are few.

It costs a lot of money (a great deal of money) to do formal trials in order to make claims of benefits.  You will not see any company spend that kind of money for a non-patentable natural elements.  And Doctors are not going to recommend anything that is not FDA approved.  They have too much liability risk.  And I don't blame them. 

I take upon myself to do the research, learn as much as possible and then make up my own mind what to do.  I can simply tell you what my results are so far.  But no doctor will ever prescribe "Curcumin".

Curcumin is not some miracle.  It's a plant derived powder.  It shows evidence of being beneficial.  It is not harmful.  And so it was easy for me to add to my diet.  Risk is low.  Benefit potential is high.  And after two months of doing what I am doing- it seems to be working.  And so I will continue.  If it stops working, I will try something else.  And I will always keep searching.

Take a look at the links I listed - especially Margaret's Blog and others.  There is a lot of information out there on Curcumin.  You have to be careful to sift propaganda from what is real - but that can be done.

Personally - I am adding a lot of "roots" to my diet (Curcumin is from the Tumeric root).  Most plants that 'swell' underground have so many benefits for you.  And like I said - no doctor prescribes Apples.


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#10 Shalom

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 09:13 PM

You are right Michael a Dr. never going to prescribe an apple. Michael how is your diet everyday can you please tell me I had dr. that he only tell me don't eat grapefruit and thats it but I know that people with any kind of cancer should have a special diet. Can you please provide some things of your everyday diet.

Thank you Michael



#11 GerryL

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:31 AM

You can eat grapefruit if you like - what it does is make the liver enzymes slower to process the TKI and thus possibly increase your side effects as the TKI is stored longer in the body. 



#12 GerryL

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 12:43 AM

They also appear to be doing a study in China

The Anti-tumoral Effect of Curcumin Combined with Imatinib on Chronic Myelogenous Leukemia Cell Lines in Vitro

http://www.china-papers.com/?p=99933



#13 Shalom

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 01:27 AM

Thanks a lot for your help I had to change my Onc. It seems to me that he don't have to much knowlage of CML, I been on Gleevec for 7 months and the only thing he has done with me every two weeks is the PCR blood test, not even a FISH or other test I know there is other one but I havent been test on those as well. My new hospital is City of Hope in Duarte California, I live very close only like 10 minutes away so I am happy and I thanks God as well.

Thank you



#14 scuba

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:38 AM

I would not suggest my diet to you.  Scotch and cigars on Friday's (Monte Cristo #3, Dominican) - sometimes Thursday's when there's good news.  Beef and pasta on the weekends.   And wine every day (except when I have Scotch - learned long ago not to do that).  Champagne on Sunday's - sans orange juice.

Trey proved eating grapefruits - especially the Texas Ruby Reds are fine.  Doctor's are just advising you from what they read on the label.  No thinking involved.

And yes - I have added a lot of beets and roots to my diet.  Truth is - I just eat whatever my wife puts in front of me (don't go there Trey).  I lose the weight by running.  I exercise so I can eat.  If I don't exercise I don't eat.  At low exercise times (busted knee, etc.) leading to weight gain; I eat cabbage soup until the weight is gone. 


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#15 scuba

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:48 AM

Hi Gerry,

Based on the paper you cited - it seems Gleevec is also enhanced in a similar way to Sprycel.  The studies limitation of course is that the tests were done 'in vitro'.  Effect within the body (in vivo) will have to be done to verify.  For me - what was reported is enough information for me to give it a try if I were on Gleevec.

The good news in all of this, I suspect - is that for those suffering myelosuppression for which high dose TKI is not possible - Curcumin offers a way to synergistically enhance a TKI.  A lower dose TKI, therefore can be therapeutic when combined with Curcumin.  I believe that is what is happening with me.

A big benefit of low dose TKI is that the side affects are greatly reduced  - and in my case - eliminated.  Taking 20mg. of Sprycel is like taking nothing at all. 


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#16 LivingWellWithCML

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:13 AM

Interesting paper ... at least, from the parts that I can discern without my hematology degree.   Here are my takeaways and questions (curcumin = Cur, and STI571 = imatinib):

Point 1:

>> Though CD34~+ cells are in a very small percentage, they might be the root of occurrence, recurrence and resistance forming.

Question:

If I'm reading this correctly, the authors are referring to the leukemic stem/progenitor cell (CD34[+]), which is regarded as the root cause behind all of this CML mess?  So, if we can find a substance that can shut these nasty fellas down, then we decrease the chance of resistance and/or progression?  Or perhaps even cure?

Point 2:

>> Increased percentage of apoptotic and nectotic cells was detected for the combination of Cur and STI571 compared to the both treated alone

>> STI571 exerted no effect on p210~(Bcr-Abl) expression in CD34~+ cells (P>0.05 vs control)

>> Cur down-regulated p210~(Bcr-Abl) expression and this effect was enhanced by combining with STI571

Question:

So does this mean (according to the study), that imatinib has no effect on the actual stem/progenitor cells themselves?  This is a widely regarded theory in the CML community, correct?  CML specialists do not believe that TKIs are able to kill off the leukemic stem cells ... which is why we are supposed to take TKIs for the rest of our lives.

Point 3:

>> All together, our results indicate that Cur enhances STI571 in vitro to inhibit K562 cell growth, reverse K562/G01 cells to STI571

>> Moreover, Cur synergizies STI571 to inhibit human originated CML CD34~+ cell growth and induce apoptosis.

>> Cur may be a prosperous agent that can be developed for the treatment of CML...

Question:

Note that the study is "in vitro", but that's where these discoveries tend to start.  But if I understand this correctly, they believe that curcumin can cause the leukemic stem cells to go through a naturally-occurring programmed cell death process.  Yes?

I wonder what Brian Druker thinks of this?  He has dedicated the last 10 years of his research to figuring out how to target the leukemic stem cells.  I wish I had this information in hand when I met him in Tampa back in May.  I definitely would've asked him about this!

** Michael -- If I recall, Dr. Cortes neither confirms nor denies the benefits of coupling your Sprycel treatment with Curcumin, correct?  And I assume that he won't provide any insight on the 8g daily-equivalent dosage that you're taking?


Dan - Atlanta, GA

CML CP Diagnosed March 2011

Gleevec 400mg


#17 scuba

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:39 AM

Hi Dan,

Dr. Cortes was introduced by me to Dr. Aggarwal regarding Sprycel and Curcumin.  They have exchanged e-mails some of which I was copied.  Dr. Cortes was curious about the pharmokinetic affect of Curcumin on Dasatinib (Sprycel).  Dr. Aggarwal replied with data from the colon cancer study.  Dr. Cortes, I have learned, does not offer information unless asked.  And if you ask a question to which he does not know the answer - he says so.  He does not know enough about Curcumin to recommend that I take it or that I stop taking it.  He is curious, however, if Curcumin can enhance Sprycel.  Whether he acts on his curiosity is his choice.  I have a suspicion he is too busy to venture far from his current research on Big-pharma funded trials and research.

What is important to me is that he does not tell me to stop taking Curcumin.

On your question about TKI's not being able to kill stem cells.  The work done shows that TKI's affect dividing cells.  When stem cells divide - it is at that point that TKI's bind with the ATP site that kills the cells.  This is how the population ultimately gets reduced so that normal cells can take over.  The reason TKI's don't cure is that many blood stem cells stay dormant.  In this state, TKI's are not taken up by the cell.  When TKI therapy stops - the stem cell eventually divides and resumes the cancer.  But this is why there is evidence that if a TKI is taken long enough - eventually - the dormant cells divide and then get killed.  It is suggested that CML can be cured over very long time on a TKI.  But they don't know how long it takes.  Those who reach PCRu fast and stay PCRu for years seem to have the best chance at getting all of the stem cells eradicated.

A true cure for CML lies in the complete eradication of Leukemic stem cells while they are at rest and not just when they divide  OR....OR .... the body develops an ability to kill Leukemic cells as they are created whether the stem cells are eradicated or not.  In other words, the body defends against CML in a dynamic fasion.  PH+ cells may exist, but they can't expand and cause disease.


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#18 LivingWellWithCML

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:46 AM

Thanks Michael - very helpful.

Doesn't this study **suggest** that curcumin can specifically cause the leukemic stem cells to go through a naturally-occurring cell death process (perhaps dormant versions??)?  I'm trying trying to understand what curcumin potentially brings to the table that the TKI does not ... is that how you're reading it?


Dan - Atlanta, GA

CML CP Diagnosed March 2011

Gleevec 400mg


#19 scuba

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 09:49 AM

Dan,

When a stem cell is dormant and not dividing - there is not much one can do to kill it.  The TKI's work by being taken into the cell when it uses phosphorylation to create ATP for energy (in order to divide). TKI's interupt that process (I think of it as starving the cell when it needs energy) and the dividing cell dies.  Curcumin works on the membrane proteins and causes cellular confusion that leads to programmed cell death (apoptosis).  Curcumin slows down the rate of replication and is believed in some cases to cause Leukemic cells to revert (i.e.. they become nromal acting) or behave normally even though the cells are PH+.   In my reading - I have uncovered no mention of Curcumin affecting stem cells that are quiescent.

When I was taking Curcumin only - I noticed that my WBC count was not rising as expected when one is taken off a TKI.    I went for months without any TKI and with no disease progression.  But I was also 100% Ph+ cytogenetics.  I had CML - but it was not doing anything.  My PCR and FISH slowly started to rise though.  Finally I was put back on a low level dose of Sprycel (20mg).  Dr. Cortes expected the low dose to slow my progression while I deal with mylosuppression.   He fully intended to increase my dose once myelosuppression was under control.   To his and my surprise - the 20 mg. not only slowed the progression it crashed it.  FISH returned to zero and PCR dropped below 1% in two months.  He is keeping me at 20mg. even though I asked him if I should increase the doseage.  He said lower is better if it is working.  Dr. Cortes is focussed on rate of decrease.   He is surprised that he is seeing the drop on such a low dose.

I believe the Curcumin slowed the disease and when a TKI was introduced - there was a population crash (leukemic cells).  Fortunately my normal system seems to have recovered enough that I can stay on Sprycel.  And I take my Curcumin.

A big test will be coming up in a few months when I have my 3 month PCR check.  It is my hope that I will be 3 log reduction in PCR if not PCRu.  If I am PCRu - truly undetected - then I will attribute that to the Curcumin- low dose Sprycel combination.  AND I will suggest to Dr. Cortes - since he wants to see me personally - that he should strongly look into this approach in the clinic.  We'll know in a few months.

By the way - I haven't had a CBC in weeks.  I have no idea what my WBC's are doing (Neutrophils) and it feels GREAT not to know.  I haven't visited the doctor to draw blood in weeks and I don't go for a CBC test for another two weeks or so - and I may just cancel that.  I have no mouth sores, my saliva is returning (dry mouth is fading) and I have energy (beet juice!).  I know that if I get mouth sores and dry mouth - that is a sure sign of low Neutrophils - so that is my guide now.


Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)

with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein

 

Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate

6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.

 

2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale) 

March        2017 PCR:     0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)

June          2017 PCR:     "undetected"

September 2017 PCR:     "undetected"


#20 Shalom

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:36 AM

I can include Scotch and the wine but cigars and chanpange they are expensive for me so I will include only the scotch and the wine. You said you added a lot of beet and roots but you don't specified what kind of roots but I will include beet for my diet, and I am going to try curcumin as well why not.

Thanks a lot






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