20 replies to this topic

[scuba]

Cancer is a failure of our immune system to identify and eradicate malignant cells. The reference article linked below is an excellent summary of how cancer develops and the role of our immune system and new medical innovations which are coming online to eradicate this disease leading to no recurrence.

 

It is worth reading.

 

http://www.cancerres...al.pdf?ext=.pdf

[r06ue1]

Good stuff Scuba, thanks for sharing.  

 

Ever since Jimmy Carter went from stage 4 melanoma which spread to his brain and liver to cured, I have been following immunotherapy very closely.  

 

Sean Parker is pushing this technology with his millions:  

 

http://parker.org/news

[scuba]

Good stuff Scuba, thanks for sharing.  

 

Ever since Jimmy Carter went from stage 4 melanoma which spread to his brain and liver to cured, I have been following immunotherapy very closely.  

 

Sean Parker is pushing this technology with his millions:  

 

http://parker.org/news

 

It's all very exciting. 

[rct]

Cancer is the failure of cells to live and die normally, and nothing else.  The immune system is thought to be a potential way to stop the cells from living.  Cells live and die a life span.  When they don't respond to the signals that tell them to die, it is cancer.  A man made medication that stops them from doing that will remove our immune systems from discussion.

 

I'm not arguing.  I'm not pooping on your parade.  I don't come here often any more and the first two or three or 5 things I see usually range from just not true(like this) to ridiculous.

 

By age 50 our cells have replicated over a trillion times.  The true miracle is that there is not more cancer, that cell replication actually fails as little as it does.

 

I did not make any of this up, I got it from listening to people that worked with Druker on Gleevec, back when they used to go around and have talks like this. 

 

rct

[Trey]

If our immune system was good enough to detect and kill all cancer cells it would be "good enough" to eat our liver and brain and everything else in our body because cancer cells, like all of our cells, are "self". 

[scuba]

Did either of you read the report linked above?

 

Do you understand the difference between T-helper cells and T- killer cells. Do you know what T-cells do and how each type interacts with each other? 

Do you know how the body prevents immune attack on the normal cells? And that when it does fail it's called an auto-immune disease PRECISELY because the body's immune system is attacking "self". 

 

Cancer cells are not "self" - completely. They are aberrant and have the ability to produce "self" proteins that prevents the immune system from mounting a full attack.

 

It is truly a wonder that there isn't much more cancer as it is a wonder that the body's immune system doesn't attack everything. 

 

READ the report above. It is edifying.

[Gail's]

Agree with you, Scuba. Now I wish I could know the state of my immune system at the precise moment a CML cell was allowed to live. What specifically was going on that let enough aberrant cells sneak past my defenses. Of course, we'll never know for sure but would sure like to!

[Trey]

Question: What type of cell started the whole CML thingy in each one of us?  Anyone?  Anyone?

 

Answer:  An IMMUNE cell.  The very cells in charge of keeping crapola out of our bodies went haywire.  So if anyone asks where their immune cells were when they needed them, they were right there.  In fact, they WERE the problem.

 

There is something to be said for genetic engineering of immune cells to teach them to recognize certain types of cancer cells, and I believe that.  But "boosting the immune system" to cure cancer is a false hope.  The key is teaching the immune system.  That is way harder.

[rct]

Believe whatever you want, but expect to get called on outright falsehood.

 

I do not read hope, I read and listen to facts.

 

A real researcher, one of the guys that started the meds that everyone here takes to stay alive, does not agree with you Scuba. Since we've been to his office in Portland Oregon and been treated by the head of his team, I tend to believe what they believe, which are facts, not hope.

 

Your immune system stood by and watched as one single cell replicated wrong, and again, and on and on, that's how it happened and would keep happening if you didn't take the drugs you take.

 

rct

[scuba]

http://health.usnews...lls-daily-study

[Red Cross Kirk]

For what it's worth, I've been seeing Dr. Heinrich at OHSU for about a year and a half.  When I asked him about a future cure for CML he said he thought it would be some form of immunotherapy.

[r06ue1]

Cancer cells are us, our bodies make them which means they are part of us.  The problem is something went wrong with those cells and they were supposed to either auto-correct themselves or auto-kill themselves (apoptosis), when both of those failed, we got cancer.  Cancer cells also have an ability to switch off our immune system preventing normal immune cells from attacking it.  One method researchers are working on is to reprogram normal immune cells to detect and kill those bad cells and also prevent the cancer cells from switching them off is what immunotherapy is about; don't kill the good cells but kill the defective one's.  Another is drugs which either prevent the cancer cells from disabling our immune system or enhance our immune systems by painting a big bulls-eye on the cancer cells.  

 

[mikefromillinois]

All the back and forth about cancer is certainly interesting.  But keep in mind that experts in many fields disagree on things.  And keep in mind that "cancer" has been the most studied human condition for decades - among the experts on the planet - and we still don't have a cure.  The best news is smart people are still working very hard to find one - and they will - and many of today's experts believe immunotherapy will be involved.

 

And, oh yeah, the CUBS won the World Series !!

[scuba]

For what it's worth, I've been seeing Dr. Heinrich at OHSU for about a year and a half.  When I asked him about a future cure for CML he said he thought it would be some form of immunotherapy.

 

That was the point of my post linking the report. Immunotherapy is where a true cure for cancer will be found. RCT writes that he knows a "real" researcher that disagrees with this. I know real researchers that do agree with this (Dr. Carl June). 

 

Trey's point above is also noteworthy in that CML is an immune system disease. Our immune cells manage a fine balance between guarding the hen house (T- cells) and eating the hens (autoimmune disease). But I disagree that boosting the immune system won't "help" cure a cancer in combination with our drugs. A weakened / defective immune system is what enabled CML to get a foothold in the first place.

[Billie Murawski]

I'm just very thankful we have tkis.At dx 9 years ago I was told before Gleevac there was no treatment for CML. No chemo or radiation nada. Just go home and get your affairs In order!  Shucks I guess no more affairs for me.

[Trey]

It is the TKI itself, not vitamins or health foods, which makes the residual leukemic cells targets for potential immunotherapy:

 

https://ash.confex.c...Paper95957.html

[scuba]

It is the TKI itself, not vitamins or health foods, which makes the residual leukemic cells targets for potential immunotherapy:

 

https://ash.confex.c...Paper95957.html

 

This paper just enhances my point about immune response being critical to TFR success without necessarily having to eradicate ALL CML cells (which you often state is required and I say is not). Your ridiculous conclusion that this somehow means "vitamins or health foods" have nothing to do with immune response is erroneous. From the paper (underline mine):

 

"Conclusion: In keeping with STIM and EURO-SKI trials, a threshold level of particular NK cell subsets may be important in maintaining TFR. We found additionally that enhanced NK and CTL effector responses and decreased inhibitory NK KIR2DL2/DL3/DS2 expression, in combination with reduced monocytic MDSC may promote sustained TFR. Methods to enhance nett immune effector responses, such as mature CD56dimCD57+ NK cells and BMI-1 CTL responses or targeting inhibitory KIR may increase TFR success rates.

 

The way I interpret the results and the authors conclusion is that our immune system is ESSENTIAL to keeping CML at bay otherwise TFR would not work.

 

THEREFORE ....

 

anything we can do to enhance our immune system involving nutrition (particularly vitamin D) and also attack CML cells nutritionally will help the NK subset grow and inhibitory molecules which effect known CML enhancing pathways (Jak2, others) which affect MDSCs enhance the immune effector responses.

[gerry]

Scuba,
Just wondering in all your research whether anything has been written about the impacts of raised adrenaline on the immune system?

[rct]

...RCT writes that he knows a "real" researcher that disagrees with this. I know real researchers that do agree with this (Dr. Carl June). 

 

 

I disagreed with your definition of cancer.  I got the definition from the guys that invented Gleevec.  To the best of my knowledge that definition has not changed.

 

If you want to change the definition to suit your beliefs you can.  You do yourself and others a disservice when you do.  The immune system may have something to do with a "cure". It also very well may not.  The "cure" lives where the cause lives, and since they are so far unable to figure out why the cells behave like they do, there is no cure.

 

If enhanced immune systems and super health were the answer, why do all these super healthy people that never smoked, never drank, and never ate anything with fat in it get cancer?  Have you ever been to a pediatric cancer ward?  We used to go up to Penn, had to stand in line with all the parents bringing all the kids with cancer into the adjacent pediatrics ward.   Them kids never even got a chance to not be super healthy, they never had a chance to be vitamin deficient, never had a smoke or a beer, never jogged or worked out.  Why is that ward FULL of kids in really bad shape?

 

The obvious is all around us.  Dismissing it for the sake of a belief that can't possibly fit even most of the people with cancer is one thing, espousing it as fact is a whole nother thing.

 

rct

[scuba]

I disagreed with your definition of cancer.  I got the definition from the guys that invented Gleevec.  To the best of my knowledge that definition has not changed.

 

If you want to change the definition to suit your beliefs you can.  You do yourself and others a disservice when you do.  The immune system may have something to do with a "cure". It also very well may not.  The "cure" lives where the cause lives, and since they are so far unable to figure out why the cells behave like they do, there is no cure.

 

If enhanced immune systems and super health were the answer, why do all these super healthy people that never smoked, never drank, and never ate anything with fat in it get cancer?  Have you ever been to a pediatric cancer ward?  We used to go up to Penn, had to stand in line with all the parents bringing all the kids with cancer into the adjacent pediatrics ward.   Them kids never even got a chance to not be super healthy, they never had a chance to be vitamin deficient, never had a smoke or a beer, never jogged or worked out.  Why is that ward FULL of kids in really bad shape?

 

The obvious is all around us.  Dismissing it for the sake of a belief that can't possibly fit even most of the people with cancer is one thing, espousing it as fact is a whole nother thing.

 

rct

 

Not espousing as "fact" - I assume you mean that I suggested super nutrition cures cancer ... nope. 

 

What I am suggesting is that enhancing our natural immune system through nutrition which has been shown to enhance natural cancer fighting mechanisms as well as block biochemical pathways necessary for cancer cell survival is a wise approach to ADD to our TKI regimen - not replace it. 

 

And yes - genetics trumps everything. Kids developing cancer is horrible.