Stopping TKI Treatment Is Safe for Patients With Chronic Myeloid Leukemia
https://shar.es/1JAULtvia @cure_magazine
Posted 16 June 2016 - 09:31 PM
Stopping TKI Treatment Is Safe for Patients With Chronic Myeloid Leukemia
https://shar.es/1JAULtvia @cure_magazine
For the benefit of yourself and others please add your CML history into your Signature
02/2010 Gleevec 400mg
2011 Two weakly positives, PCRU, weakly positive
2012 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU
2013 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, weakly positive
2014 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU (12/07 began dose reduction w/each continuing PCRU)
2015 300, 250, 200, 150
2016 100, 50/100, 100, 10/17 TFR
2017 01/17 TFR, 04/18 TFR, 07/18 TFR 0.0012, 08/29 TFR 0.001, 10/17 TFR 0.000
2018 01/16 TFR 0.0004 ... next quarterly PCR 04/17
At the earliest opportunity, and whenever possible, lower your TKI dosage; TKIs are toxic drugs and the less we take longterm the better off we are going to be ... this is especially true for older adults.
In hindsight I should have started my dosage reduction two years earlier; it might have helped minimize some of the longterm cumulative toxic effects of TKIs that I am beset with.
longterm side-effects Peripheral Artery Disease - legs (it's a bitch); continuing shoulder problems, right elbow inflammation. GFR and creatinine vastly improved after stopping Gleevec.
Cumulative Gleevec dosage estimated at 830 grams
Taking Gleevec 400mg an hour after my largest meal of the day helped eliminate the nausea that Gleevec is notorious for.
Trey's CML Blog - Stopping - The Odds - Stop Studies - Discussion Forum Cessation Study
Big PhRMA - Medicare Status - Social Security Status - Deficit/Debt
Posted 17 June 2016 - 12:18 AM
Posted 21 June 2016 - 07:22 AM
Lots can't stop, probably Most. The article itself is misleading and the title is VERY misleading.
First CML patient they find expired in their shed because they read on the internetz you don't have to take the awful medicine I sure hope a lot of people stand up and take some heat for it.
rct
Posted 21 June 2016 - 09:37 AM
The problem is the LSC's can remain for many years (even decades) after someone stops so there is no guarantee that it won't come back in a few years even if they are successful at first.
Probably best to wait for the cure that eliminates the LSC's.
08/2015 Initial PCR: 66.392%
12/2015 PCR: 1.573%
03/2016 PCR: 0.153%
06/2016 PCR: 0.070%
09/2016 PCR: 0.052%
12/2016 PCR: 0.036%
03/2017 PCR: 0.029%
06/2017 PCR: 0.028%
09/2017 PCR: 0.025%
12/2017 PCR: 0.018%
Taking Imatinib 400 mg
Posted 21 June 2016 - 10:20 AM
I came across an excellent summary of blood stem cells and transformation into LSC's. The description helps sort out what happens in the bone marrow to both produce a healthy blood system and/or a cancerous one. What is most interesting is the reference to the fact that it is the HSC's that maintain and grow Leukemia (AML as well as CML) not the daughter cells. It is in the self-renewing aspect of HSC's that maintain the cancer. Many HSC's can have bcr-abl translocation and do nothing, others expand subsequently leading to blast crisis. Exactly what triggers this is unknown, but work is getting closer to understanding the genes involved in this self renewal. The recent breakthroughs regarding p53 and c-Myc are examples of where research is leading to the eradication of LSC's.
Enjoy the read - it really does put this all into perspective
http://stemcells.nih...06chapter2.aspx
(note: even if a "cure" via the p54-C-Myc path is verified and LSC's are eradicated - it doesn't mean that a normal HSC doesn't spontaneously re-create the bcr-abl translocation following treatment. So a true cure will always be elusive to those of us whose immune systems are unable to spot, correct and defeat LSC's from expanding. In conversation with Heme-oncologists, LSC's probably are created normally as a consequence of the tight bindings in the cell (proximity of 9 and 22 chromosome breakpoints to each other). It is the response to this or lack thereof that either keeps these cells in check or enables them to proliferate. So merely eradicating them is not enough - although it is likely to buy a lot of time in remission - which could last until something else kills us.
Something about our immune system is where the answer truly lies)
Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)
with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein
Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate
6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.
2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)
2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)
March 2017 PCR: 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)
June 2017 PCR: "undetected"
September 2017 PCR: "undetected"
Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:35 AM
Scuba - I'm setting your comprehensive article aside to read carefully and slowly later today when I have some time. Looking forward to it! This is the part of our story that I find the hardest to get my brain around. I intuitively agree with you that ultimately it will have to be our own immune system that has to play 24/7 cop. But even that scenario has its perils - as my onc yesterday pointed out, auto-immune issues can/will crop up that can be deal-breakers. Sometimes I think a true cure is impossible because the breakdown of the parts and systems of the organism is the only way to ensure we don't last forever and overpopulate the planet. Sort of written in the stars. Wars. plagues, disasters, accidents, and . . . senescence!
Dx July 2009 on routine physical. WBC 94. Started Gleevec 400 mg Sept 2009. MMR at 2yrs. Side effects (malaise, depression/anxiety, fatigue, nausea, periorbital edema) never improved. Kidney issues developed because of Gleevec. Switched to Sprycel 70 mg in Aug 2011. Above side effects disappeared or improved. Have been MR3.5 - 4.5 ever since. Two untreated pleural effusions followed by one treated by stopping Sprycel Jan 2017. After 9 weeks, PCR showed loss of MMR; re-started Sprycel at 50 mg and in 3 months was back to <0.01% IS. Pleural effusion returned within a couple of months, same as before (moderate, left side only). Stopped Sprycel 50 mg for 12 weeks; pleural effusion resolved. At about a monthoff the drug, PCR was 0.03; at 11 weeks it was 2.06 - lost CCyR? Have returned to 50 mg Sprycel for 3 weeks, intending to reduce to 20 mg going forward.
Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:54 AM
I too believe that even if we kill all our LSC's, a blood cancer (maybe another type) could re-occur due to our environment and our immune system (or lack thereof). A combination of killing off all the CML (TKI's), killing the LSC's and Immunotherapy could be required to be truly cured where the leukemia never comes back.
But the future does look very promising. Glad to hear this could also work for AML too.
08/2015 Initial PCR: 66.392%
12/2015 PCR: 1.573%
03/2016 PCR: 0.153%
06/2016 PCR: 0.070%
09/2016 PCR: 0.052%
12/2016 PCR: 0.036%
03/2017 PCR: 0.029%
06/2017 PCR: 0.028%
09/2017 PCR: 0.025%
12/2017 PCR: 0.018%
Taking Imatinib 400 mg
Posted 23 June 2016 - 08:18 AM
HI Buzz,
Well, I am still cycling one month on, one month off. This is saving money which was the 'first' reason I did it... until the old doughnut hole goes further down for Medicare. I send myself in for blood work every month and not a hiccup (yet!). WBC is absolutely stable and just to the left of normal by a tiny bit ... all other counts fine. I test kidney and liver function every few months and, since being on a Testosterone program, I only test that every three months (never want low T again, what a real terrible time that was).
But I need to do a BCR-ABL blood. As it is not covered under Medicare and runs over $1000, it won't happen. Novartis used to offer a free test once in a while but apparently if you are 'on Medicare' (which does not cover the test) Novartis won't either, strange.
I read everything I can on the progress of killing CML... does seem hopeful but then again it "all seems to be a race to the finish line."
Be safe... starting my 8th year.
Doc
Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:16 PM
Hi roamingdoc,
Good to hear from you. I had no idea that the BCR/ABL1 blood test isn't covered under Medicare. That's a tough spot for you to be in. It's good that your WBC is stable to at least give you some peace of mind. Hoping we see the price of generic Imatinib/Gleevec being driven down come August 1 when Sun Pharma loses its six-month sole proprietorship.
While In the Donut Hole, Consumers pay:
2016: 45% for brand-names and 58% for generics
2017: 40% for brand-names and 51% for generics
2018: 35% for brand-names and 44% for generics
2019: 30% for brand-names and 37% for generics
2020: 25% for brand-names and 25% for generics
For 2016, the Medicare Donut Hole will be $3,310 to $4,850.
For 2017, the Medicare Donut Hole will be $3,700 to $4,950
For the benefit of yourself and others please add your CML history into your Signature
02/2010 Gleevec 400mg
2011 Two weakly positives, PCRU, weakly positive
2012 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU
2013 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, weakly positive
2014 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU (12/07 began dose reduction w/each continuing PCRU)
2015 300, 250, 200, 150
2016 100, 50/100, 100, 10/17 TFR
2017 01/17 TFR, 04/18 TFR, 07/18 TFR 0.0012, 08/29 TFR 0.001, 10/17 TFR 0.000
2018 01/16 TFR 0.0004 ... next quarterly PCR 04/17
At the earliest opportunity, and whenever possible, lower your TKI dosage; TKIs are toxic drugs and the less we take longterm the better off we are going to be ... this is especially true for older adults.
In hindsight I should have started my dosage reduction two years earlier; it might have helped minimize some of the longterm cumulative toxic effects of TKIs that I am beset with.
longterm side-effects Peripheral Artery Disease - legs (it's a bitch); continuing shoulder problems, right elbow inflammation. GFR and creatinine vastly improved after stopping Gleevec.
Cumulative Gleevec dosage estimated at 830 grams
Taking Gleevec 400mg an hour after my largest meal of the day helped eliminate the nausea that Gleevec is notorious for.
Trey's CML Blog - Stopping - The Odds - Stop Studies - Discussion Forum Cessation Study
Big PhRMA - Medicare Status - Social Security Status - Deficit/Debt
Posted 23 June 2016 - 11:17 PM
HI Buzz
Are those 'latest' donut holes? I was under the impression that the ACA did a lot (not the I like the program) to drop the donut hole... in 2018 to nothing (but then again I use bread comes to find my way home).
We'll see how it shakes out... frankly with the turmoil in the world and within what's left of our borders I wonder about two years hence.
Be safe
Posted 23 June 2016 - 11:40 PM
roamingdoc, from everything I have been able to find, using Google to search for medicare coverage gap, those are the latest numbers.
I'm with you on our borders, especially our Southwest border ... the numbers are up this year on apprehensions, not to mention that it's estimated that 40% of the illegal immigrants in our country came in legally via visa, and then intentionally forgot to leave:
For the benefit of yourself and others please add your CML history into your Signature
02/2010 Gleevec 400mg
2011 Two weakly positives, PCRU, weakly positive
2012 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU
2013 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, weakly positive
2014 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU (12/07 began dose reduction w/each continuing PCRU)
2015 300, 250, 200, 150
2016 100, 50/100, 100, 10/17 TFR
2017 01/17 TFR, 04/18 TFR, 07/18 TFR 0.0012, 08/29 TFR 0.001, 10/17 TFR 0.000
2018 01/16 TFR 0.0004 ... next quarterly PCR 04/17
At the earliest opportunity, and whenever possible, lower your TKI dosage; TKIs are toxic drugs and the less we take longterm the better off we are going to be ... this is especially true for older adults.
In hindsight I should have started my dosage reduction two years earlier; it might have helped minimize some of the longterm cumulative toxic effects of TKIs that I am beset with.
longterm side-effects Peripheral Artery Disease - legs (it's a bitch); continuing shoulder problems, right elbow inflammation. GFR and creatinine vastly improved after stopping Gleevec.
Cumulative Gleevec dosage estimated at 830 grams
Taking Gleevec 400mg an hour after my largest meal of the day helped eliminate the nausea that Gleevec is notorious for.
Trey's CML Blog - Stopping - The Odds - Stop Studies - Discussion Forum Cessation Study
Big PhRMA - Medicare Status - Social Security Status - Deficit/Debt
Posted 24 June 2016 - 06:16 PM
Diagnosed Oct 2013 Started 600mg of Tasigna on Nov 4th. Lowered dose a few months later to 300mg due to side affects stayed here declining PCR until March 2015 small jump from 0.0072 to 0.0083 scarred my doc into full dose of Tasigna again 600mg(been miserable since) but reached PCRU 06/15/2015(next test) and have been there ever since. Hoping to have another little one. I have the support of my doc to go off anytime, just scared to jump. might go two years PCRU but he said it wont make much of a difference. I just figured I could possibly go into a trial while preggers if I got the two years behind me.
Nov 8th 2017 went off Tasigna
Dec 1st PCRU off TKI
Jan 5th PCR Detected .0625
Feb 1st PCR Detected .7815
Added 8-6 grams Curcumin daily in Feb
March 3rd PCR Detected 3.2646 YIKES!
stopped trying for baby after February reading. will start new TKI march 16th 2017 (Sprycel)
FYI I'm not done trying for my last little one.
Posted 24 June 2016 - 06:37 PM
Frogiegirl, congratulations on your one full year of PCRU; good luck to you on whatever decision you make.
For the benefit of yourself and others please add your CML history into your Signature
02/2010 Gleevec 400mg
2011 Two weakly positives, PCRU, weakly positive
2012 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU
2013 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, weakly positive
2014 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU (12/07 began dose reduction w/each continuing PCRU)
2015 300, 250, 200, 150
2016 100, 50/100, 100, 10/17 TFR
2017 01/17 TFR, 04/18 TFR, 07/18 TFR 0.0012, 08/29 TFR 0.001, 10/17 TFR 0.000
2018 01/16 TFR 0.0004 ... next quarterly PCR 04/17
At the earliest opportunity, and whenever possible, lower your TKI dosage; TKIs are toxic drugs and the less we take longterm the better off we are going to be ... this is especially true for older adults.
In hindsight I should have started my dosage reduction two years earlier; it might have helped minimize some of the longterm cumulative toxic effects of TKIs that I am beset with.
longterm side-effects Peripheral Artery Disease - legs (it's a bitch); continuing shoulder problems, right elbow inflammation. GFR and creatinine vastly improved after stopping Gleevec.
Cumulative Gleevec dosage estimated at 830 grams
Taking Gleevec 400mg an hour after my largest meal of the day helped eliminate the nausea that Gleevec is notorious for.
Trey's CML Blog - Stopping - The Odds - Stop Studies - Discussion Forum Cessation Study
Big PhRMA - Medicare Status - Social Security Status - Deficit/Debt
Posted 24 June 2016 - 07:44 PM
Yes... my son "is" a Border Patrol Agent... they have been ordered to 'not hold', to 'release' and told if "they don't like that, get another job!" He has said "we've found pray rugs"... and other indicators of "invasive" 'excessive cancers...;^)
roamingdoc, from everything I have been able to find, using Google to search for medicare coverage gap, those are the latest numbers.
I'm with you on our borders, especially our Southwest border ... the numbers are up this year on apprehensions, not to mention that it's estimated that 40% of the illegal immigrants in our country came in legally via visa, and then intentionally forgot to leave:
- U.S. Border Patrol Illegal Alien Apprehensions http://bit.ly/h0jNr3
- San Diego - El Centro - Yuma - Tucson - El Paso - Big Bend - Del Rio - Laredo - Rio Grande Valley
Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:25 AM
frogiegirl - Since no one can know the future, there is no right or wrong decision - there is only to do it and see, or don't do it. Wow, didn't Yoda say something like that? You could split the difference and wait HALF a year, that's one idea. At any rate, congratulations on the nice confirmation of yet another PCRU racked up.
Dx July 2009 on routine physical. WBC 94. Started Gleevec 400 mg Sept 2009. MMR at 2yrs. Side effects (malaise, depression/anxiety, fatigue, nausea, periorbital edema) never improved. Kidney issues developed because of Gleevec. Switched to Sprycel 70 mg in Aug 2011. Above side effects disappeared or improved. Have been MR3.5 - 4.5 ever since. Two untreated pleural effusions followed by one treated by stopping Sprycel Jan 2017. After 9 weeks, PCR showed loss of MMR; re-started Sprycel at 50 mg and in 3 months was back to <0.01% IS. Pleural effusion returned within a couple of months, same as before (moderate, left side only). Stopped Sprycel 50 mg for 12 weeks; pleural effusion resolved. At about a monthoff the drug, PCR was 0.03; at 11 weeks it was 2.06 - lost CCyR? Have returned to 50 mg Sprycel for 3 weeks, intending to reduce to 20 mg going forward.
Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:55 AM
Part Two: Just had a wild thought - see what you think. What if you did a dress rehearsal and went treatment-free for 3 months to see how the CML responded? Most failure of TFR's happen in the first 3 months. You could see if you maintained PCRU or close, before you committed to an actual baby. It might tell you something. You could even stretch it to 6 months, if you came up PCRU for the first 3. Then you could maybe hope that you could make it all the way through 9 months. Or it might tell you that you needed another year of PCRU to nail the CML harder. This is truly off-the-wall, so forgive me if I've messed you up.
Dx July 2009 on routine physical. WBC 94. Started Gleevec 400 mg Sept 2009. MMR at 2yrs. Side effects (malaise, depression/anxiety, fatigue, nausea, periorbital edema) never improved. Kidney issues developed because of Gleevec. Switched to Sprycel 70 mg in Aug 2011. Above side effects disappeared or improved. Have been MR3.5 - 4.5 ever since. Two untreated pleural effusions followed by one treated by stopping Sprycel Jan 2017. After 9 weeks, PCR showed loss of MMR; re-started Sprycel at 50 mg and in 3 months was back to <0.01% IS. Pleural effusion returned within a couple of months, same as before (moderate, left side only). Stopped Sprycel 50 mg for 12 weeks; pleural effusion resolved. At about a monthoff the drug, PCR was 0.03; at 11 weeks it was 2.06 - lost CCyR? Have returned to 50 mg Sprycel for 3 weeks, intending to reduce to 20 mg going forward.
Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:57 AM
So back to being able to possibly stop treatment. ....I received the news that I'm pcru again, completing one full year. Now for decisions on getting preggers. ....I know there is risk involved and a huge commitment if it returns halfway through the pregnancy, interferon is nothing to shake a stick at. It's scary stuff. I have allot to think about. ...uhhhg I even thought about going one more year to try and increase my chances, but my doc seems to think that won't matter much.plus I'm getting old lol; )
Here's a suggestion. Stop your TKI and then have a PCR test in one month. If you are still PCRU - either try and get pregnant or go another month and test again. If you remain PCRU - then get pregnant.
If - you become detectable, then you can go back on your TKI - return to PCRU and wait another year.
Diagnosed 11 May 2011 (100% FiSH, 155% PCR)
with b2a2 BCR-ABL fusion transcript coding for the 210kDa BCR-ABL protein
Sprycel: 20 mg per day - taken at lights out with Quercetin and/or Magnesium Taurate
6-8 grams Curcumin C3 complex.
2015 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)
2016 PCR: < 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)
March 2017 PCR: 0.01% (M.D. Anderson scale)
June 2017 PCR: "undetected"
September 2017 PCR: "undetected"
Posted 25 June 2016 - 12:29 PM
What? Getting Old? No Way... but seriously that is a lot to digest. As a "lark" sometime ago (at the end of my 2nd year) I completely went off Gleevec... no cycling. I had one PCR in the middle (doctor did not know I wasn't taking the meds - and I didn't have any either, couldn't afford 'em) and at the time it showed "progress".... but after about the 17th month I noted symptoms... and went back on some donated Gleevec at the end of 19 months. So, well, what I mean half of 19 is 9 1/2 months... a nice figure for pregnancy. YMMV. God Bless your efforts, good luck with it.
So back to being able to possibly stop treatment. ....I received the news that I'm pcru again, completing one full year. Now for decisions on getting preggers. ....I know there is risk involved and a huge commitment if it returns halfway through the pregnancy, interferon is nothing to shake a stick at. It's scary stuff. I have allot to think about. ...uhhhg I even thought about going one more year to try and increase my chances, but my doc seems to think that won't matter much.plus I'm getting old lol; )
Posted 26 June 2016 - 11:19 AM
So back to being able to possibly stop treatment. ....I received the news that I'm pcru again, completing one full year. Now for decisions on getting preggers. ....I know there is risk involved and a huge commitment if it returns halfway through the pregnancy, interferon is nothing to shake a stick at. It's scary stuff. I have allot to think about. ...uhhhg I even thought about going one more year to try and increase my chances, but my doc seems to think that won't matter much.plus I'm getting old lol; )
Frogiegirl, your doc is absolutely right; another year of PCRU won't make much difference in your chances of remaining TKI free.
In the trials, of those who relapse after TKI cessation (relapse being defined as loss of MMR (MR3 0.1%)), roughly 85% do so within the first four months. A percentage do lose PCRU, but don't lose MMR. Stop Studies
In the ISAV study, the amount of time on Gleevec didn't have an impact on the risk of relapse, however, a person's age was inversely related to the risk of relapse. Relapses occurred in 90% of people aged 45 years or younger, compared to 37.5% in those aged 45-64, and 27.5% in those aged 65 years or older. One of the benefits of being older.
For the benefit of yourself and others please add your CML history into your Signature
02/2010 Gleevec 400mg
2011 Two weakly positives, PCRU, weakly positive
2012 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU
2013 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, weakly positive
2014 PCRU, PCRU, PCRU, PCRU (12/07 began dose reduction w/each continuing PCRU)
2015 300, 250, 200, 150
2016 100, 50/100, 100, 10/17 TFR
2017 01/17 TFR, 04/18 TFR, 07/18 TFR 0.0012, 08/29 TFR 0.001, 10/17 TFR 0.000
2018 01/16 TFR 0.0004 ... next quarterly PCR 04/17
At the earliest opportunity, and whenever possible, lower your TKI dosage; TKIs are toxic drugs and the less we take longterm the better off we are going to be ... this is especially true for older adults.
In hindsight I should have started my dosage reduction two years earlier; it might have helped minimize some of the longterm cumulative toxic effects of TKIs that I am beset with.
longterm side-effects Peripheral Artery Disease - legs (it's a bitch); continuing shoulder problems, right elbow inflammation. GFR and creatinine vastly improved after stopping Gleevec.
Cumulative Gleevec dosage estimated at 830 grams
Taking Gleevec 400mg an hour after my largest meal of the day helped eliminate the nausea that Gleevec is notorious for.
Trey's CML Blog - Stopping - The Odds - Stop Studies - Discussion Forum Cessation Study
Big PhRMA - Medicare Status - Social Security Status - Deficit/Debt
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