20 replies to this topic

[scuba]

http://www.independe...y-10097438.html

[rcase13]

That's it, I am switching from Tasigna to Sprycel!

[Gail's]

All I know is that I look older since starting imatinib. As I spin dizzily first thing in the morning, I see puffy eyes and droopy dry skin. But interesting concept. Wonder what made them try this?

[Trey]

So the theory is we have these old cells floating around our bodies that somehow forgot how to divide, but yet they become immortal and refuse to die.  For their next trick, these immortal old fart cells then wreak havoc in our bodies by sharting on neighboring cells which causes their neighbors to become cancerous.  This is just way too stupid.  Sorta like that curcumin thingy.....hey, maybe Sprycel enemas will be next????  Good for what ails you.....right.

Edited by Trey, 12 March 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[rcase13]

So wait a minute... We are supposed to take the TKIs aborraly now?

[pammartin]

Sprycel enemas? I keep thinking about Sprycel side effects when taken orally. I shudder to think of the potential side effects when entering the lower realm.

[Billie Murawski]

So does that mean if we come across a really mean person we can tell him to aborrally shove some sprycel  up his arse and hope he gets a blasting arseache? Does that make any sense.

[scuba]

So the theory is we have these old cells floating around our bodies that somehow forgot how to divide, but yet they become immortal and refuse to die.  For their next trick, these immortal old fart cells then wreak havoc in our bodies by sharting on neighboring cells which causes their neighbors to become cancerous.  This is just way too stupid.  Sorta like that curcumin thingy.....hey, maybe Sprycel enemas will be next????  Good for what ails you.....right.

 

 

Ahh.... leave it to Trey to lead the folks down the enema trail. 

 

(Senescent cells are indeed a fact of mammalian biology: http://www.senescenc...ll_aging.html).

[Marnie]

I can personally put that article's theory to rest.  I'm on Sprycel.  My hair went. . .. "poof. . . .gray!"  My skin went. . ."poof. . .wrinkles!"  I am not feeling or looking any younger.

 

About the sharts, though. . .that can only be attributed to Gleevec.   However, I can't say that I've tried the Sprycel aborally, so perhaps that one is still up for debate.

[Trey]

"Ahh.... leave it to Trey to lead the folks down the enema trail."

 

The enema trail is easily followed.  Just sayin'  Follow the yellowed brick road.  (Munchkins heard singing in the background).

 

The truth is, cell aging is poorly understood.  The theory is that cell telemere shortening (Billie: NOT used in baking), which fancy-pants people call senescence, is due to cells having a limited number of allowed cell divisions.  After they divide a certain number of times, they can no longer reproduce.  They essentially use up their quota and usually self-destruct.  This is where I derived my theory that maybe we can simply outlive CML because the leukemic stem cells divide faster than normal stem cells, and so could divide themselves into oblivion if we can live long enough (by using TKI drugs), and therefore TKI drugs could be curative over a long period of time in a round-about way.  In the old days patients could not live long enough to divide the leukemic cells into oblivion.  But that is just a theory I invented and espoused years ago, and may be just bovine shartations.

 

Speaking of bovine sharts, if we were to kill off all our old fart cells we would presumably unravel certain tissues which are high in such cells, including cartilage.  This may possibly explain why TKI drugs cause us to have cartilage injuries more easily, but I don't know.  Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to discuss sharts, enemas, and the aboral thingy, which is always a fun word to use (again I am appreciative to Tedsey for bringing that word to the forefront.)

[rcase13]

So just throwing this out there. So how many leukemic stem cells does your typical PCRU CML patient have?

When we have a bone marrow biopsy is it possible they could dig out the few remaining stem cells that are bad? Not that I am looking for an excuse to have another BMB.

[scuba]

In reply to rcase:

"When we have a bone marrow biopsy is it possible they could dig out the few remaining stem cells that are bad? Not that I am looking for an excuse to have another BMB."

 

Yes - they can 'dig out the remaining stem cells' - it's called a stem cell transplant. Not something I would ever want to have done.

[rcase13]

Yeah going to skip on that if I can.

[scuba]

Yeah going to skip on that if I can.

 

Trey raises the idea that CML stem cells may just wear themselves out after repeated cell divisions. And that in the presence of a TKI, the children are always getting killed and then the parents end up burning out. End of line. I believe this is true as well, but with a twist.

 

I don't think it's necessary for the CML stem cells to die out in order for CML disease to be eliminated. I believe that CML stem cells are regenerated from normal cells all of the time. Normal blood stem cells divide to create a CML stem cell because of a translocation error. Translocation errors happen naturally or can be induced (radiation). Disease occurs because the daughter cells down the road are not identified and destroyed along with the offending CML stem cell. It is our immune response that has failed.

 

Perhaps it is possible taking a TkI for a long time may outlive the Stem Cell and a functional cure obtained - (no relapse after stopping TKI treatment), but I believe that CML stem cell eradication is temporary at best. The body is always producing translocating 9;22 bcr-abl cells. Something else is enabling these cells to expand. I believe that eradicating CML stem cells alone may not be sufficient for a "cure", but may give very long relapse times. A cure lies in getting our bodies to recognize bcr-abl cells and killing them. 

 

This is where nutrition comes in (as well as T-cell/NK cell therapies). Perhaps there is some combination of natural elements that can restore immune function. This is why I asked about vitamin D levels in people with CML and why I take lots of Curcumin. Curumin is known to interfere with the cellular pathways vital for CML survival. Taking nutritional elements in combination and in therapeutic levels may be sufficient to restore natural protection against this disease. Long shot, but worth taking. I am testing this idea right now.

[Trey]

Everything after your first paragraph ignores the laws of probability and defies logic.  The probability that a piece of chromosome 9 breaks off at the same exact time a piece of 22 breaks, and that they occur at a very precise moment during stem cell division is miniscule.  Add to this the requirement that it occurs in a high level blood stem cell, which is a "rare" event, and probabilities decrease significantly more.  Then they must both reattach at the wrong locations, which is another consecutive miniscule probability.  CML is a rare disease, so these things do not happen "all the time" or CML would be far more widespread than it is.  And nutrition does not prevent or correct genetic mix-ups. 

[scuba]

Everything after your first paragraph ignores the laws of probability and defies logic.  The probability that a piece of chromosome 9 breaks off at the same exact time a piece of 22 breaks, and that they occur at a very precise moment during stem cell division is miniscule.  Add to this the requirement that it occurs in a high level blood stem cell, which is a "rare" event, and probabilities decrease significantly more.  Then they must both reattach at the wrong locations, which is another consecutive miniscule probability.  CML is a rare disease, so these things do not happen "all the time" or CML would be far more widespread than it is.  And nutrition does not prevent or correct genetic mix-ups. 

 

I disagree with you. Transcription errors occur all of the time. And bcr-abl oncogene formation is a transcription error. Chromosome 9 and 22 do not break off separately and then re-attach in the new locations - that indeed would be highly unlikely. The 9 and 22 chromosome are wrapped around each other naturally in the cell. The break point and re-attach occurs simultaneously and not necessarily during division. In fact, it's because the stem cells are not rapidly dividing that errors like this occur and don't get corrected. And that is what forms the oncogene. 

 

CML is a rare disease because the immune system of healthy people recognizes the aberration and destroys it. And it is pure nonsense to say that nutrition does not play a role in cancer. There have been numerous studies to show that it does. It's not exclusive, but a contributing cause. 

 

Trey - for your edification: http://www.sciencedi...934590910003292

[scuba]

Everything after your first paragraph ignores the laws of probability and defies logic.  The probability that a piece of chromosome 9 breaks off at the same exact time a piece of 22 breaks, and that they occur at a very precise moment during stem cell division is miniscule.  Add to this the requirement that it occurs in a high level blood stem cell, which is a "rare" event, and probabilities decrease significantly more.  Then they must both reattach at the wrong locations, which is another consecutive miniscule probability.  CML is a rare disease, so these things do not happen "all the time" or CML would be far more widespread than it is.  And nutrition does not prevent or correct genetic mix-ups. 

 

Also - http://nar.oxfordjou...nar.gkr223.full

 

"In addition, the presence of such translocations in healthy individuals suggests that these translocations alone are not enough to cause cancer."

FUNDING

Leukemia Research Foundation, USA and CSIR, India (27(0164/07/EMR-II:2007); Senior Research Fellowship from CSIR, India (to M.N.). Funding for open access charge: Leukemia Research Foundation, USA.

[rcase13]

They hit on it briefly in the conclusion and it is something my doctor pointed out. And something I have observed here in this online group.

Healthy individuals with excellent health get this form of cancer just as much as other non healthy individuals. I see athletes on here, vegetarians etc.

I do have autoimmune issues. I suffer from a moderate case of Psoriasis. I wonder if that is a factor.

[Gail's]

I think it would be interesting to evaluate the risks of various forms of cancer in those who have a disease that compromises the immune system. For instance, diabetes creates a slightly compromised immune system. The question then would be, how much would the risk of cancer be increased in diabetics? This is an interesting discussion and raises all kinds of possibilities for research.

[Trey]

rcase,

At barely PCRU there are still at least 1 million leukemic cells in the body. 

 

The above fact should cause Scuba to wonder why "healthy individuals" would have well over 1 million leukemic cells (positive BCR-ABL PCR) and not have CML.  Repeating bovine sharts over and over does not make it into cotton candy.  Healthy individuals have not been found to have over 1 million leukemic cells in their body.  That is way past absurd.  The fact is that PCR is an estimate, and prone to error, so it often has false positives.  People without CML can have false positive PCRs.